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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 271 of 331 (901422)
11-09-2022 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Phat
11-08-2022 6:19 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Phat writes:
I depend on Him to give me wisdom that education and secular information alone cannot provide.
If He is doing that, why are you so wrong-headed about so many things?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 11-08-2022 6:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Phat, posted 11-09-2022 5:22 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 272 of 331 (901425)
11-09-2022 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by ringo
11-09-2022 3:05 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Because I'm human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by ringo, posted 11-09-2022 3:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by AZPaul3, posted 11-09-2022 6:22 PM Phat has replied
 Message 277 by ringo, posted 11-10-2022 10:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7324
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 273 of 331 (901427)
11-09-2022 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Phat
11-09-2022 5:22 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
So he is not giving you wisdom that education and secular information alone cannot provide. And he sure hasn't given you the critical thinking skills to discern reality from your religious fantasy. He has, and is, giving you nothing. Just like he doesn't exist. Imagine that.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Phat, posted 11-09-2022 5:22 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Phat, posted 11-09-2022 11:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 274 of 331 (901431)
11-09-2022 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by AZPaul3
11-09-2022 6:22 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
The only way I would "imagine"that is if I preferred that reality...which I don't..
The God I believe in can only be ignored by you because He allows you that freedom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by AZPaul3, posted 11-09-2022 6:22 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by AZPaul3, posted 11-10-2022 1:30 AM Phat has replied
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 11-10-2022 10:43 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7324
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 275 of 331 (901437)
11-10-2022 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by Phat
11-09-2022 11:15 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
The God I believe in can only be ignored by you because He allows you that freedom.
In exchange for what? I'm free to be me so now I owe him something? Forever servitude in the choir, maybe? A BBQ stand in Camp Lake 'O Fire?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Phat, posted 11-09-2022 11:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Phat, posted 11-10-2022 8:52 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 276 of 331 (901453)
11-10-2022 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by AZPaul3
11-10-2022 1:30 AM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
He might keep you around for your sense of humor...if nothing else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by AZPaul3, posted 11-10-2022 1:30 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 277 of 331 (901462)
11-10-2022 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Phat
11-09-2022 5:22 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Phat writes:
Because I'm human.
So are all of us. And there are many people on this forum who don't have your God whispering in their ears who are much better thinkers than you. Your God may actually be holding you back.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Phat, posted 11-09-2022 5:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 278 of 331 (901463)
11-10-2022 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by Phat
11-09-2022 11:15 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Phat writes:
The only way I would "imagine"that is if I preferred that reality...which I don't.
You don't get the reality you "prefer". You only get the real one.
Phat writes:
The God I believe in can only be ignored by you because He allows you that freedom.
He allows us the freedom to not allow Him to hold us back? Nice.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Phat, posted 11-09-2022 11:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 11-12-2022 7:55 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 279 of 331 (901591)
11-12-2022 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Taq
11-08-2022 6:37 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
I really respect your response and world view.
You hit the nail on the by suggesting societal consensus.
I feel that society must find common ground that transcends both religious beliefs and political ldeology. Facts may suggest that religions are based on myths but people would die to defend their beliefs....though in today's world they need not do so.
We all will likely face some tough times together. Let's not ruin the opportunity to help each other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Taq, posted 11-08-2022 6:37 PM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 280 of 331 (901594)
11-12-2022 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by ringo
11-10-2022 10:43 AM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
He allows us the freedom to not allow Him to hold us back? Nice.
Keep in mind that anytime He would hold us back it would always be for our benefit.
Our free will gives us the power to complicate our future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 11-10-2022 10:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by ringo, posted 11-13-2022 1:43 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 281 of 331 (901652)
11-13-2022 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Phat
11-12-2022 7:55 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Phat writes:
Keep in mind that anytime He would hold us back it would always be for our benefit.
You keep contradicting yourself. You claim that "free will" allows us to learn for ourselves - and now you claim that God holds us back from our free will so we don't have to learn for ourselves.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 11-12-2022 7:55 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Phat, posted 11-13-2022 3:57 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 282 of 331 (901676)
11-13-2022 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by ringo
11-13-2022 1:43 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
ringo writes:
You claim that "free will" allows us to learn for ourselves - and now you claim that God holds us back from our free will so we don't have to learn for ourselves.
In order to understand my convoluted logic, let's examine your beliefs apriori.
  • You don't believe that GOD exists, or the Judeo-Christian one, at any rate.
  • You believe that Jesus was a mythically created historical character.
  • You don't believe that there is a spiritual conflict between good and evil, apart from in our minds.
  • Having now asserted that humans already know the difference between good and bad behavior and actions, you conclude that the message alone is important and, like jar, say only that we are expected to feed, clothe, and shelter everyone
    No wonder you think I send a confusing message. You think that free will means that we figure it all out for ourselves, assume that humans are basically good (without the need of an alien overlord, as you so glibly claim) and that no God is required, even if
    one existed.
    I, on the other hand, think that God is basically the Judeo-Christian one, made personal and understanding through Jesus. I believe that humans will never make it without God's interference and that we will learn this the hard way if we continue on your secular path.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 281 by ringo, posted 11-13-2022 1:43 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 283 by ringo, posted 11-14-2022 11:06 AM Phat has replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 20492
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (1)
    Message 283 of 331 (901718)
    11-14-2022 11:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 282 by Phat
    11-13-2022 3:57 PM


    Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
    Phat writes:
    You believe that Jesus was a mythically created historical character.
    No, I don't believe He was a historical character. He was, and is, a fictional character. And that's not a belief. It's based on evidence (or lack of evidence).
    Phat writes:
    You don't believe that there is a spiritual conflict between good and evil, apart from in our minds.
    I don't believe there is anything "spiritual", apart from our minds. Just like you don't believe there is anything leprechaunal, apart from our minds. And you don't believe there is anything Santa Clausal, apart from our minds.
    Phat writes:
    Having now asserted that humans already know the difference between good and bad behavior and actions...
    No need to assert it. It's a conclusion based on evidence. And it isn't just humans; it's every social species.
    Phat writes:
    You think that free will means that we figure it all out for ourselves....
    That's what free will means. What you seem to be talking about is "cheap will", where you always have a backup god to magically fix your bad "free" decisions. But we know that isn't true - because your bad decisions don't get fixed unless you fix them yourself.
    Phat writes:
    ... assume that humans are basically good
    Again, not an assumption, a conclusion. Social species, yada yada yada.
    Phat writes:
    and that no God is required, even if one existed.
    You're a living demonstration of that. Your belief in your made-up god is a stumbling-block.
    You said you were going to help us understand your convoluted logic but you didn't. Here's what you quoted:
    quote:
    You claim that "free will" allows us to learn for ourselves - and now you claim that God holds us back from our free will so we don't have to learn for ourselves.
    Explain.

    Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
    I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
    To hold a six shooter, and never to run
    As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
    -- Woody Guthrie

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 282 by Phat, posted 11-13-2022 3:57 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 284 by Phat, posted 11-15-2022 2:02 AM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 16627
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 284 of 331 (901846)
    11-15-2022 2:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 283 by ringo
    11-14-2022 11:06 AM


    Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
    ringo, addressing me writes:
    Your belief in your made-up god is a stumbling block.
    Kindly explain the difference between a made-up God in 2022 versus a made-up God penned by any number of Biblical writers. You can't have it both ways. If they made God up, how is it any different than me making Him up??
    (apart from you preferring their version of God, expounded upon in scripture)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 283 by ringo, posted 11-14-2022 11:06 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 285 by ringo, posted 11-15-2022 11:16 AM Phat has replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 20492
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (1)
    Message 285 of 331 (901865)
    11-15-2022 11:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 284 by Phat
    11-15-2022 2:02 AM


    Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
    Phat writes:
    Kindly explain the difference between a made-up God in 2022 versus a made-up God penned by any number of Biblical writers.
    The difference is that the Biblical writers didn't know any better. You ought to.
    The Biblical writers didn't have science to guide them. You ought to.
    Phat writes:
    You can't have it both ways.
    You're the one who wants to have it both ways. You piggyback on the Bible when it suits you and deny it when it doesn't suit you.
    I, on the other hand, am pretty consistent:
    1. The Bible says what it says.
    2. Much of what it says is wrong.
    Phat writes:
    If they made God up, how is it any different than me making Him up??
    They made up a nasty God who punished them for stepping out of line. You make up a white-washed God who only asks you to do what you already want to do.
    Phat writes:
    apart from you preferring their version of God, expounded upon in scripture
    I don't prefer ANY god.
    And if YOU are going to ever mention scripture at all, you need to learn to accept it as it is.

    Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
    I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
    To hold a six shooter, and never to run
    As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
    -- Woody Guthrie

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 284 by Phat, posted 11-15-2022 2:02 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 286 by Phat, posted 11-16-2022 3:24 PM ringo has replied

      
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