Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
dwise1
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Posts: 5475
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 256 of 331 (900954)
11-02-2022 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Theodoric
11-02-2022 6:57 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Do you not understand your religion?
How could he? Christianity obviously evolved from the mystery religions, so it only follows that Christians would not understand their own religion.
From their coverage in my comparative religions class c. 1971 (Dr. Christian; his daughter, Candy, also attended that class -- true story), a common feature of mystery religions (besides the death and resurrection of the god/demigod and the ritual eating of his flesh and drinking of his blood) is their being organized into two parts: the Inner Temple and the Outer Temple. The Outer Temple were the rituals performed in public using obtuse symbolism in order to hide the meanings of the rituals and symbols from outsiders. To learn the true teachings and the meaning behind all that symbolism, you had to be initiated into the Inner Temple (which did not require losing your right eye, unlike in Wotan's case -- though in the Wotan cult I'm not so sure, given references to that in Barbaren and American Gods).
We see an example of that interplay between the Outer Temple and the Inner Temple in the account of Jesus' Parables. We are told that he taught the crowd in parables (basically, throwing around, so ¿throwing them a curve ball?) so that they would not understand him, unless they had "eyes to see and ears to hear" (ie, had already been initiated into the mysteries). Then he pulled his disciples off to the side to explain the mysteries to them (Mark uses that actual term), thus inducting them into the Inner Temple.
It is my own personal feeling that in the case of Christianity the Outer Temple is all that has survived, but the Inner Temple has been lost long ago. Or else being kept a closely guarded secret by the original churches (eg, Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, etc).
But at the very least, the vast majority of believers (very likely all of them) have never learned what their religion actually taught originally. So how could we expect them to understand it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Theodoric, posted 11-02-2022 6:57 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Theodoric, posted 11-02-2022 7:50 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 257 of 331 (900955)
11-02-2022 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by dwise1
11-02-2022 7:42 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
I agree with the idea that christianity started out as a mystery religion. The early writings are infused with ideas and rituals that match other mystery religions of the time. I wonder when all references to the sacred prostitutes was expunged.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by dwise1, posted 11-02-2022 7:42 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 3:59 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4184
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 258 of 331 (900991)
11-03-2022 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
11-01-2022 7:21 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Phat writes:
I agree with everything you say and would only add that IF Jesus is God Incarnate that He is in effect one of the ants. God had to become an ant to understand ants.
But that's still not "a peer" of humans.
He's still God.
And went back to being God.
Might have a line of argument if Jesus stayed human, and died human, and never "returned" to God.
But that didn't happen.
So it's clear that God/Jesus/Holy-Spirit is not a peer of humanity.
And I think that judgment-by-peers is, sometimes, more important that judgement-by-anyone-else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 11-01-2022 7:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 11-04-2022 12:10 PM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 259 of 331 (901014)
11-03-2022 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Theodoric
11-02-2022 7:50 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
When people finally realized that there were two spirits even though there was One God.
No mystery there.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Theodoric, posted 11-02-2022 7:50 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Theodoric, posted 11-03-2022 5:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 260 of 331 (901016)
11-03-2022 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by ringo
10-24-2022 12:32 PM


Re: Phat Attempts To Understand Ringo
ringo writes:
The question was, "Why is God so petty as to need us?" You still haven't answered it.
The answer is that God does not need us. He wants us.And He is not petty. No human has the wisdom to make such a claim.
We were given knowledge yet cannot find the truth. Reality is incomplete. unknown as of yet. The jury is out.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 10-24-2022 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 11-04-2022 1:00 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 261 of 331 (901020)
11-03-2022 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Phat
11-03-2022 3:59 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
WTF does this have to do with anything? Do you know what a mystery religion is?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 3:59 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 262 of 331 (901081)
11-04-2022 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Stile
11-03-2022 12:59 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Stile writes:
Might have a line of argument if Jesus stayed human, and died human, and never "returned" to God.
But that didn't happen.
So it's clear that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is not a peer of humanity.
Note the prayer purportedly said to have been prayed by Jesus: (John 17:1-26)
John 17:1-26 writes:
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
This is not a set number...at least as of yet. John 3:16 clearly says that whosoever shall believe... Critics may charge God with being selective and partial, but it appears that ALL are given the opportunity. As I have argued with ringo before, the sheep are not yet sheep and the goats are not yet goats. The music has not yet stopped.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
In scripture, (NT specifically) God and Jesus are portrayed as an inseperable team. You cant have one without the other.
4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Which supports my point that Jesus existed in Spirit before He existed in carnality upon His birth.
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
Addressing Stiles point, it appears that not ALL humans were Gods. Among themselves, however, they were all most definitely human and as a result, peers among themselves. One subgroup (Not ALL) was apparently in Communion with God, and it was the duty of these peers to influence their other peers(who were not yet chosen)
9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
Critics will again claim exclusivity and favoritism by God and His Son, but note that His prayer is directed to those whom were given to Him. Technically this could include ALL, but only those in Communion. In other wotds, the one requiment is to seek Communion with God through, if nothing else, willingness for such a union to take place.
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Truly a prayer for all, though the word ALL means all God has given Jesus.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
20 Jesus Prays for All Believers
"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Stile, posted 11-03-2022 12:59 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Stile, posted 11-04-2022 12:36 PM Phat has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4184
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 263 of 331 (901089)
11-04-2022 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Phat
11-04-2022 12:10 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Phat writes:
Addressing Stiles point, it appears that not ALL humans were Gods. Among themselves, however, they were all most definitely human and as a result, peers among themselves. One subgroup (Not ALL) was apparently in Communion with God, and it was the duty of these peers to influence their other peers(who were not yet chosen)
I don't think that addresses my point.
My point is that God is not a peer of humanity.
Like The President of The United States is not a peer of kindergartners.
I don't really think this point is arguable.
Unless you want to say that God is a lot weaker than most people think He is? Or maybe that people are more powerful than reality shows us to be?
It doesn't make any sense.
God/Jesus/HolySpirit cannot be peers of humanity. Because they're not human.
I didn't really think it was a tricky idea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 11-04-2022 12:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 11-04-2022 3:27 PM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 264 of 331 (901094)
11-04-2022 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Phat
11-03-2022 4:05 PM


Re: Phat Attempts To Understand Ringo
Phat writes:
And He is not petty. No human has the wisdom to make such a claim.
You're just parroting dogma.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 4:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 265 of 331 (901105)
11-04-2022 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Stile
11-04-2022 12:36 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Allow me to rewrite that sentence.
Addressing Stiles's point, it appears that not ALL humans belonged to Jesus(or God.) Among them, however, were some who accepted the Spirit and thus had Gods Spirit while remaining human and peers amongst humanity. Some humans are apparently in Communion with God, and it was IS the duty of these peers to influence their other peers(who were are not yet chosen...because they themselves have not yet chosen. They did not choose, as of this writing.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Stile, posted 11-04-2022 12:36 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Stile, posted 11-04-2022 3:42 PM Phat has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4184
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 266 of 331 (901107)
11-04-2022 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
11-04-2022 3:27 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Phat writes:
Addressing Stiles's point, it appears that not ALL humans belonged to Jesus(or God.) Among them, however, were some who accepted the Spirit and thus had Gods Spirit while remaining human and peers amongst humanity. Some humans are apparently in Communion with God, and it was IS the duty of these peers to influence their other peers(who were are not yet chosen...because they themselves have not yet chosen. They did not choose, as of this writing.
I still don't see how this applies.
I'll attempt to break it down and you can show me where I'm wrong:
...it appears that not ALL humans belonged to Jesus(or God.) Among them, however, were some who accepted the Spirit and thus had Gods Spirit while remaining human and peers amongst humanity.
So... some humans exist that have God's Spirit and are still humans.
Therefore - these humans are still peers to humanity.
I would agree.
But I don't see how this is relevant.
My point is that God is not a peer to humans.
"Humans that have God's Spirit" (regardless of how true this is...) are still humans and peers to humans.
God still isn't human, and still isn't a peer to humans.
Some humans are apparently in Communion with God, and it was IS the duty of these peers to influence their other peers(who were are not yet chosen...because they themselves have not yet chosen.
Sure - these humans with God's Spirit try to influence their peers.
This still doesn't turn God into a peer of humanity. God still isn't a human.
They did not choose, as of this writing.
What does this have to do with God being a peer to humans?
Perhaps I need to define "peer."
Peer means: "someone of the same age, the same social position, or having the same abilities as other people in a group."
In this context it's "having the same abilities as other people."
God does not have the same abilities as humans. Isn't He supposed to be all great-and-stuff?
If God is all great-and-stuff... then He has abilities that humans do not.
Therefore God does not have the same abilities as humans.
Therefore God is not a peer to humans.
This doesn't mean God can't communicate with humans.
This doesn't mean God can't have human-people He communicates with that then communicate with non-God humans.
None of that changes the abilities of God to be equal to the abilities of humans.
Therefore, God still has abilities that humans do not.
Therefore, God is still not a peer to humans.
Does that help?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 11-04-2022 3:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:37 AM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 267 of 331 (901128)
11-05-2022 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Stile
11-04-2022 3:42 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Stile writes:
Peer means: "someone of the same age, the same social position, or having the same abilities as other people in a group."
In this context, it's "having the same abilities as other people."

God does not have the same abilities as humans. Isn't He supposed to be all great and stuff?

If God is all great and stuff... then He has abilities that humans do not.
So if you are alluding to the fact that the same criteria apply to Jesus, I can see how Jesus, even if He existed, would somehow not be easily approachable by you. You seemingly do not trust anyone or anything that is more than a peer. Am I close?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Stile, posted 11-04-2022 3:42 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Stile, posted 11-09-2022 8:57 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 268 of 331 (901382)
11-08-2022 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
05-01-2007 10:44 AM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
ringo writes:
You can have your communion with God without depending on Him to change your diapers.
I agree.
I depend on Him to give me wisdom that education and secular information alone cannot provide.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 05-01-2007 10:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Taq, posted 11-08-2022 6:37 PM Phat has replied
 Message 271 by ringo, posted 11-09-2022 3:05 PM Phat has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9088
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 269 of 331 (901383)
11-08-2022 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Phat
11-08-2022 6:19 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
I suspect that this is no longer a "no responses from poopy face atheists" thread, but still I'm just going to make one post and pop back out.
Best of all, I think you'll like what I have to say.
Phat writes:
I depend on Him to give me wisdom that education and secular information alone cannot provide.
As an atheist, I'm actually happy that Christianity gives meaning and purpose to your life. No one needs my approval to find meaning in their lives, and it does make me proud that we live in a country and culture (which includes our non-US democratic partners) where people can decide for themselves how to live their lives.
All that we atheists/agnostics/humanitarians/whatevers ask is that we find some common footing together. Most often this is found in our common ability to empathize, reason, and find justice in society. We may disagree. In fact, I can almost guarantee that we will disagree. But that's ok. As long as we all meet at the same table and try to talk things out while understanding both our human qualities and flaws, I think we will come out the other side in good shape.
With that, I will pop out of the discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 11-08-2022 6:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 11-12-2022 7:46 PM Taq has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4184
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 270 of 331 (901399)
11-09-2022 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Phat
11-05-2022 11:37 AM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Phat writes:
So if you are alluding to the fact that the same criteria apply to Jesus...
I was not.
It's you who says Jesus and God are the same, I was trying to be respectful.
I was simply alluding to the fact that God is not a peer to humans, simply because God is God and humans are not gods.
...I can see how Jesus, even if He existed, would somehow not be easily approachable by you.
How so?
Personally, I would love for Jesus to be real and to have a chance to approach Him.
You seemingly do not trust anyone or anything that is more than a peer. Am I close?
No, not close at all.
I trust anyone or anything that's trustworthy. Trustworthy beings who are "more than peers" are some of the best kind to have - they can help with many things that are beyond me.
Being a peer or not has nothing to do with being trustworthy.
I'm simply saying that being a peer gives someone a unique view to judge someone else... they will know/understand the situation better than anyone else. It's simply the definition of peer.
Example:
We have two baseball players and a programmer.
Any of them can judge any of the others - it's a free country.
But it's obvious that the two baseball players will be able to judge each other in a unique way that the programmer will not be able to.
This has nothing to do with being trustworthy or "better."
It's just a simple fact.
Why wouldn't those in the same situation have a unique ability to judge each other - wouldn't their level of understanding each other be closer than anyone else's?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
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