Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9094 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: d3r31nz1g3
Post Volume: Total: 901,858 Year: 12,970/6,534 Month: 253/2,210 Week: 194/390 Day: 0/50 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
jar
Member (Idle past 47 days)
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 241 of 331 (828868)
02-25-2018 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by ringo
02-25-2018 1:44 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
The good father feeds his children with knowledge instead of bread?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:44 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 03-04-2018 4:21 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 242 of 331 (829247)
03-04-2018 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by jar
02-25-2018 3:50 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
The good father feeds his children with knowledge instead of bread?
My Father provided plenty of bread but not so much knowledge. I was forced to find that on my own, though when a man has a full stomach he is not as desperate to find ways to earn his own bread.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 02-25-2018 3:50 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 11:41 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 243 of 331 (829351)
03-06-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Phat
03-04-2018 4:21 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
My Father provided plenty of bread but not so much knowledge. I was forced to find that on my own....
The good father doesn't necessarily spoon-feed his children, either with bread or with knowledge. He encourages them to earn their own bread and seek their own knowledge.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 03-04-2018 4:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 10-22-2022 9:58 AM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4184
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 244 of 331 (829443)
03-07-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Phat
02-24-2018 2:28 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
It must be convenient for you to be your own judge. Isnt it nice to wipe away all of your own sins?
I am an atheist.
On an unrelated-to-being-an-atheist note, I believe that each and every person that's-not-me has just as much right (perhaps more so) to judge me than any God that anyone has ever believed in.
I have over 8 billion real, living, current judges judging me.
Constantly.
I have to talk to some of them each and every day.
You have 1 judge judging you and you don't even have to look Him in the eyes until the end of your life?
Oh what I would give to have it so easy...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Phat, posted 10-22-2022 9:44 AM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 245 of 331 (900016)
10-22-2022 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by ringo
02-25-2018 1:10 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Expounding further...
I believe that God wants us to *need* Him.
ringo writes:
Why would He "want" us to need Him?
Assuming for a moment that God has human emotions and is governed by them...He is the ultimate egomaniac. The only One in the entire universe who knows that everybody and everything needs Him, and needs to need Him. Oh, some may imagine that they don't. They gleefully suggest that humans created God and now have no further need of Him. Or they gush on unabashedly how their "skydaddy" is their b*tch and had best give them stimulus checks for eternity.
So the question could be better phrased. Why is God so petty as to need us? Surely He has better things to do. And if, after all, He created us to need Him, why not just make it a done deal?
ringo writes:
We humans like to feel we are needed - but we have other humans who need us to one extent or another. Isn't it enough that the guy on the corner needs me to give him a dollar for drugs? Should I feel inadequate because the Prime Minister doesn't ask me for advice?
The Prime Minister should be ashamed of himself for *not* asking more of the public (who have lived awhile) for advice. And the guy on the corner? He needs your dollar more than he needs you.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by ringo, posted 10-22-2022 1:23 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 246 of 331 (900019)
10-22-2022 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Stile
03-07-2018 2:04 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Stile writes:
I believe that each and every person that's-not-me has just as much right (perhaps more so) to judge me than any God that anyone has ever believed in.
Are you saying that humans know each other better than God knows them?
Stile writes:
I have over 8 billion real, living, current judges judging me.
Constantly.
I have to talk to some of them each and every day.
Most of them are too busy to give me a moment's thought.
I suppose a case could be made for learned behavior. The fact that I see, however, is that since all of us are human and none of us are perfect, we dont so much collectively judge each other as hold each other to ever more difficult standards. And then we have guys like Putin who could care less about the planet or any other fellow human and set progress back a hundred years.
Stile writes:
You have 1 judge judging you and you don't even have to look Him in the eyes until the end of your life?
Oh, but we have to look Him in the eye. His Spirit resides in some humans and if they look us in the eye, He effectively looks us in the eye!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Stile, posted 03-07-2018 2:04 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Stile, posted 10-25-2022 11:12 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 247 of 331 (900021)
10-22-2022 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
03-06-2018 11:41 AM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
ringo writes:
The good father doesn't necessarily spoon-feed his children, either with bread or with knowledge. He encourages them to earn their own bread and seek their own knowledge.
Imagine if this "good father" someday sits them down and separates them into two groups. One group gets to divide the Father's inheritance among themselves. The other group gets nothing. Would that be fair?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 10-22-2022 1:26 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 248 of 331 (900043)
10-22-2022 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Phat
10-22-2022 9:37 AM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
Assuming for a moment that God has human emotions and is governed by them...
OR... the people who made him up wanted him to have human emotions.
Phat writes:
He is the ultimate egomaniac.
You do understand that that's a bad thing, don't you? (Or maybe you don't. Maybe that's why you admire Trump so much, because you've created your god in Trump's image.)
Phat writes:
The only One in the entire universe who knows that everybody and everything needs Him, and needs to need Him.
Wasn't it Thomas Paine who said that people know their own needs better than some goober on a throne an ocean away?
Phat writes:
They gleefully suggest that humans created God and now have no further need of Him.
Correction, NEVER needed him - at least since we stole fire from him, anyway.
Phat writes:
Or they gush on unabashedly how their "skydaddy" is their b*tch and had best give them stimulus checks for eternity.
No, we give each other stimulus checks.
Phat writes:
So the question could be better phrased. Why is God so petty as to need us?
We've been asking you that for a long time. The answer seems to be that you've created your god in your own image.
(I note that YOU don't try to answer your own question.)
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Should I feel inadequate because the Prime Minister doesn't ask me for advice?
The Prime Minister should be ashamed of himself for *not* asking more of the public (who have lived awhile) for advice.
I said he doesn't ask ME. I didn't say he doesn't ask the public.
I'll tell you anecdotally why I have never voted Conservative:
In every provincial election from the time I turned eighteen until I moved into an apartment three years ago (the politicians can't get in the door), the NDP (socialist) candidate has stood on my doorstep and talked to me in person. EVERY single election (maybe fifteen of them). During that same period of time, NOT ONE Conservative candidate has EVER come to my door. NOT ONE. Full disclosure: ONE conservative canvasser did come to the door ONCE - but I have never met an actual Conservative candidate.
So it is the conservatives who are not consulting me.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Phat, posted 10-22-2022 9:37 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Phat, posted 10-23-2022 12:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 249 of 331 (900044)
10-22-2022 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Phat
10-22-2022 9:58 AM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
The good father doesn't necessarily spoon-feed his children, either with bread or with knowledge. He encourages them to earn their own bread and seek their own knowledge.
Imagine if this "good father" someday sits them down and separates them into two groups. One group gets to divide the Father's inheritance among themselves. The other group gets nothing. Would that be fair?
A good father wouldn't do that.
Why do you ask me questions with such obvious answers?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 10-22-2022 9:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Phat, posted 11-19-2022 12:33 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 250 of 331 (900115)
10-23-2022 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by ringo
10-22-2022 1:23 PM


Phat Attempts To Understand Ringo
Phat writes:
Assuming for a moment that God has human emotions and is governed by them...
ringo writes:
OR... the people who made him up wanted him to have human emotions.
There are no "people" who made up God. God found us...we never invented Him. Next question?
Phat writes:
He is the ultimate egomaniac.
You do understand that that's a bad thing, don't you? (Or maybe you don't. Maybe that's why you admire Trump so much because you've created your god in Trump's image.)
Trump has nothing to do with it. I swear that in your world there are only liberals (proper people) conservatives(bad and evil people) and Canadians.(Contrarians)
I defend God as being an egomaniac with a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor but did it ever occur to you that God and God alone has a right to have a big head. You piss-ant Johnny-come-lately's are as insignificant to Him as pond scum, excepting Jesus. For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son...
Phat writes:
The only One in the entire universe who knows that everybody and everything needs Him, and needs to need Him.
Wasn't it Thomas Paine who said that people know their own needs better than some goober on a throne an ocean away?
So now God Himself is defined by ringo of Saskatchewan as another "goober"! And you claim that having a big ego is a bad thing? Wait until the guys at the office get a load of this!
Phat writes:
They gleefully suggest that humans created God and now have no further need of Him.
Correction, NEVER needed him - at least since we stole fire from him, anyway.
Reducing God, the Creator of all seen and unseen to an anthropomorphic invention of primitive people is dishonest. I don't even think we humans are even wise enough to imagine the greatness of God...if not for Jesus.
ringo writes:
No, we give each other stimulus checks.
Well, if you and your liberal ilk were even worthy enough to be noble people of the book, you would never mandate compulsive giving beyond the tithe. You would never try and throw God away. You would never legislate nor attempt to legislate morality. You would never give people the right to self-identify, as if they even knew what was best for them (and others) You would humble yourselves, pray to the Creator of this great and grand universe, and allow Him to give you wisdom, insight, and purpose. Instead, like lemmings falling off of a cliff, you attempt to help all of the people and will end up helping none of them, once our economy collapses, we have rioting and looting in city streets, and the world sits at the brink of destruction. Even then you won't pray. You will do the easy thing and blame the conservatives!
Phat writes:
So the question could be better phrased. Why is God so petty as to need us?
We've been asking you that for a long time. The answer seems to be that you've created your god in your own image.
First of all, who is this mystical *we*? It sure as hell isn't "we the people". At best it is "we the peanut gallery!"
I note that YOU don't try to answer your own question.
I said it earlier and it is quite simple. God created us long before we were evolved enough to imagine Him.
ringo writes:
I'll tell you anecdotally why I have never voted Conservative:
In every provincial election from the time I turned eighteen until I moved into an apartment three years ago (the politicians can't get in the door), the NDP (socialist) candidate has stood on my doorstep and talked to me in person. EVERY single election (maybe fifteen of them). During that same period of time, NOT ONE Conservative candidate has EVER come to my door. NOT ONE. Full disclosure: ONE conservative canvasser did come to the door ONCE - but I have never met an actual Conservative candidate.
So it is the conservatives who are not consulting me.
Though I self-identify as a moderate, I will represent the non-Trumpian Conservatives and would gladly knock on your door any day of the week. I will even bring my own lunch and water. We can then walk to the library to talk.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by ringo, posted 10-22-2022 1:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 10-24-2022 12:32 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 251 of 331 (900161)
10-24-2022 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Phat
10-23-2022 12:56 PM


Re: Phat Attempts To Understand Ringo
Phat writes:
There are no "people" who made up God.
Of course there are. You're a shining example of that. Your God has only the qualities that you cherry-pick for Him.
Phat writes:
Next question?
We wouldn't need a "next question" if you'd deal with that one honestly.
Phat writes:
Trump has nothing to do with it.
Instead of just denying, why don't you THINK?
Phat writes:
I swear that in your world there are only liberals (proper people) conservatives(bad and evil people) and Canadians.(Contrarians)
1. I live in the second-most conservative Province in Canada. Almost everybody I know is conservative, so it wouldn't be practical for me to consider all of them "evil".
2. I am not a contrarian.
Phat writes:
... did it ever occur to you that God and God alone has a right to have a big head.
You can assume that everything that occurs to you has occurred to me. Most of what occurs to you occurred to me fifty years ago.
Phat writes:
... did it ever occur to you that God and God alone has a right to have a big head.
On the contrary, He has no "rights" at all. He doesn't need any if hHe's omnipotent.
Phat writes:
You piss-ant Johnny-come-lately's are as insignificant to Him as pond scum...
Now you're showing your true colors. Your (made-up) god doesn't want "communion" with us. We're scum.
Phat writes:
... excepting Jesus.
What do you mean by that?
Phat writes:
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son...
He loved us like pond scum? Make up your mind.
Phat writes:
So now God Himself is defined by ringo of Saskatchewan as another "goober"!
YOUR made-up god is barely a goober.
(And why do you keep calling me "ringo of Saskatchewan?")
Phat writes:
And you claim that having a big ego is a bad thing?
Having an exaggerated ego is a bad thing. Can you dispute that at all?
Phat writes:
Wait until the guys at the office get a load of this!
How do you expect them to react?
Phat writes:
Reducing God, the Creator of all seen and unseen to an anthropomorphic invention of primitive people is dishonest.
You're the one who has done that. And yes, it is blatantly dishonest to call him the "Creator of all seen and unseen" and then claim that he doesn't create evil. Evil is both seen and unseen.
The god that YOU have made up is certainly comparable to " an anthropomorphic invention of primitive people".
Phat writes:
I don't even think we humans are even wise enough to imagine the greatness of God...
It's true that YOUR imagination has produced a puny Trump of a god. You'd be better of sticking to what the bronze-age sheep herders said.
Phat writes:
... if not for Jesus.
Again, what do you mean by that?
Phat writes:
Well, if you and your liberal ilk...
Jesus was one of those "ilk", asshole.
Phat writes:
... were even worthy enough to be noble people of the book...
People of the book do what the book says.
Phat writes:
... you would never mandate compulsive giving beyond the tithe.
And I never have.
It was Jesus who made it a mandate.
Phat writes:
You would never try and throw God away.
What has that got to do with stimulus checks?
Phat writes:
You would never legislate nor attempt to legislate morality.
And I don't. It's your conservative ilk that do that. *cough* abortion laws *cough*
Phat writes:
You would never give people the right to self-identify, as if they even knew what was best for them (and others)
See Thomas Paine again. People know what's best for themselves more than some goober on a throne.
Phat writes:
You would humble yourselves,
You should buy a mirror, Mr. Holier-than-thou.
Phat writes:
... pray to the Creator of this great and grand universe, and allow Him to give you wisdom, insight, and purpose.
We can get more wisdom, insight and purpose from the universe itself than we will ever get from your silly ranting about your made-up god.
Phat writes:
Instead, like lemmings falling off of a cliff, you attempt to help all of the people and will end up helping none of them, once our economy collapses, we have rioting and looting in city streets, and the world sits at the brink of destruction.
The world IS on the brink of destruction but it has nothing to do with helping each other too much.
Honestly, you'd better hope your god ISN'T real because the way you spit on Jesus, you're gong to be struck down.
Phat writes:
Even then you won't pray. You will do the easy thing and blame the conservatives!
That's a fittingly stupid end to a thoroughly stupid rant.
Phat writes:
So the question could be better phrased. Why is God so petty as to need us?
ringo writes:
We've been asking you that for a long time. The answer seems to be that you've created your god in your own image.
First of all, who is this mystical *we*?
"We" is the people who have been asking you that question. There is nothing "mystical" or even mysterious about it.
Phat writes:
It sure as hell isn't "we the people".
And I didn't say it was. i said it was "we the people who asked the question."
Phat writes:
At best it is "we the peanut gallery!"
So you did know the answer all along. Why did you waste my time?
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
I note that YOU don't try to answer your own question.
I said it earlier and it is quite simple. God created us long before we were evolved enough to imagine Him.
The question was, "Why is God so petty as to need us?" You still haven't answered it.
Phat writes:
Though I self-identify as a moderate, I will represent the non-Trumpian Conservatives and would gladly knock on your door any day of the week.
Tell that to tthe conservatives who know where my door is.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Phat, posted 10-23-2022 12:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 4:05 PM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4184
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 252 of 331 (900223)
10-25-2022 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Phat
10-22-2022 9:44 AM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
I believe that each and every person that's-not-me has just as much right (perhaps more so) to judge me than any God that anyone has ever believed in.
Are you saying that humans know each other better than God knows them?
No - I don't even see how your response is related to my statement.
But I do think my statement was worded not-so-great, so I'll try again:
I believe that people have a right to judge their peers.
I believe they have more of a right to judge their peers than non-peers.
In putting "humans" as "peers" - I think humans have a right to judge each other that's equal (or possibly more than) God's right to judge humans.
I would say that God, if He is "all-knowing" would know people better than other people would... and this is why God is not a "peer." He is all-knowing, and humans are not. Therefore, a part of "not knowing everything, but judging as best we can" is a part of being human, and something that God is missing and therefore isn't able to judge us in the way we can judge us. In that sense - God's judgement is lesser.
Think of growing an ant farm.
Think of yourself as "the creator" of the ants and the farm... but they go about their business doing their thing.
You could use your full-data of the farm and the ants to judge them.
But the ants could use ant-available-data to judge themselves.
There are ways where the "full-data" judging can be seen as better.
And there are ways where the "ant-available-data" judging can be seen as better (simply because it's from their perspective.)
If I wanted to know "how I'm doing as a human" - God's judgement would be interesting, but other-human's judgement would be more informative. God may be able to know all the other-human's judgements and relay that information... but this would be "equal" to human judgement, and not greater.
If God's judgement is different... then it's not "how I'm doing as human" - it's more "how I'm doing in God's eyes" - which is an interesting question - but it is a different question and doesn't answer "how I'm doing as a human."
Most of them are too busy to give me a moment's thought.
Sure - but judgement from other people is obviously more "in your face" than judgement from God on a daily basis.
The fact that I see, however, is that since all of us are human and none of us are perfect, we dont so much collectively judge each other as hold each other to ever more difficult standards.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Holding each other to ever more difficult standards comes from judging people. Yet you say it's "not so much judging" each other... when that's exactly what it is. It doesn't seem to make any sense.
Sounds to me like you're attempting to force words to mean something else to get away from some idea you're afraid to discuss in your mind.
Oh, but we have to look Him in the eye.
Once? At the end of my life?
Easy peasy.
Again - this is one single judgement at one particular time in my life.
I have tens, hundreds, thousands (possibly more) people judging me and my actions every day of my life.
And you're attempting to say the single judgement at the end, that's not even in your face, and has no immediate consequences while we're alive... is harder to deal with? That's just... clearly wrong. It's so wrong the word "wrong" isn't enough to describe it.
It's like you're attempting to convince me that an inspector giving a 5 min. review of the building at the end of the build is going to be "more harsh" than an inspector that's glued to your hip and looking over your shoulder the entire 4 year build of the project. It's wronger than wrong.
Even if the inspector at the end is all-knowing... he would only be able to be equal to the one over your shoulder the entire time, not "more harsh." And you have the benefit of only going through it once, instead of all-day every-day the entire time.
His Spirit resides in some humans and if they look us in the eye, He effectively looks us in the eye!
Are you attempting to say that second-hand "effectively" anything is more direct than direct, first-hand things?
How much wronger-than-wrong are you trying to get to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Phat, posted 10-22-2022 9:44 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 11-01-2022 7:21 PM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 253 of 331 (900905)
11-01-2022 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Stile
10-25-2022 11:12 AM


Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Stile writes:
I would say that God, if He is "all-knowing" would know people better than other people would... and this is why God is not a "peer." He is all-knowing, and humans are not. Therefore, a part of "not knowing everything, but judging as best we can" is a part of being human, and something that God is missing and therefore isn't able to judge us in the way we can judge ourselves. In that sense - God's judgment is lesser.

Think of growing an ant farm.
Think of yourself as "the creator" of the ants and the farm... but they go about their business doing their thing.
You could use your full data of the farm and the ants to judge them.
But the ants could use ant-available data to judge themselves.
I agree with everything you say and would only add that IF Jesus is God Incarnate that He is in effect one of the ants. God had to become an ant to understand ants.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Stile, posted 10-25-2022 11:12 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 11-02-2022 4:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 255 by Theodoric, posted 11-02-2022 6:57 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 258 by Stile, posted 11-03-2022 12:59 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 254 of 331 (900945)
11-02-2022 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
11-01-2022 7:21 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Phat writes:
God had to become an ant to understand ants.
By that logic, He would have to become Canadian to understand Canadians.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 11-01-2022 7:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 255 of 331 (900952)
11-02-2022 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
11-01-2022 7:21 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
God had to become an ant to understand ants.
I thought the dude was omniscient. So he is not omniscient? Do you not understand your religion?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 11-01-2022 7:21 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by dwise1, posted 11-02-2022 7:42 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2022 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022