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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 212 of 331 (828203)
02-13-2018 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
02-13-2018 12:39 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
No, I believe that we are the ones who are needy. God is gracious enough to put up with us.
Perhaps God is so incredible that He is there for all of those who need them, and doesn't get in the way for those who don't.
On the other hand...
Perhaps the universe is so incredible that God exists for those who need Him (faith, belief, imagination...), and God does not exist for those who don't.
To each their own?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 02-13-2018 12:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 244 of 331 (829443)
03-07-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Phat
02-24-2018 2:28 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
It must be convenient for you to be your own judge. Isnt it nice to wipe away all of your own sins?
I am an atheist.
On an unrelated-to-being-an-atheist note, I believe that each and every person that's-not-me has just as much right (perhaps more so) to judge me than any God that anyone has ever believed in.
I have over 8 billion real, living, current judges judging me.
Constantly.
I have to talk to some of them each and every day.
You have 1 judge judging you and you don't even have to look Him in the eyes until the end of your life?
Oh what I would give to have it so easy...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Phat, posted 10-22-2022 9:44 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 252 of 331 (900223)
10-25-2022 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Phat
10-22-2022 9:44 AM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
I believe that each and every person that's-not-me has just as much right (perhaps more so) to judge me than any God that anyone has ever believed in.
Are you saying that humans know each other better than God knows them?
No - I don't even see how your response is related to my statement.
But I do think my statement was worded not-so-great, so I'll try again:
I believe that people have a right to judge their peers.
I believe they have more of a right to judge their peers than non-peers.
In putting "humans" as "peers" - I think humans have a right to judge each other that's equal (or possibly more than) God's right to judge humans.
I would say that God, if He is "all-knowing" would know people better than other people would... and this is why God is not a "peer." He is all-knowing, and humans are not. Therefore, a part of "not knowing everything, but judging as best we can" is a part of being human, and something that God is missing and therefore isn't able to judge us in the way we can judge us. In that sense - God's judgement is lesser.
Think of growing an ant farm.
Think of yourself as "the creator" of the ants and the farm... but they go about their business doing their thing.
You could use your full-data of the farm and the ants to judge them.
But the ants could use ant-available-data to judge themselves.
There are ways where the "full-data" judging can be seen as better.
And there are ways where the "ant-available-data" judging can be seen as better (simply because it's from their perspective.)
If I wanted to know "how I'm doing as a human" - God's judgement would be interesting, but other-human's judgement would be more informative. God may be able to know all the other-human's judgements and relay that information... but this would be "equal" to human judgement, and not greater.
If God's judgement is different... then it's not "how I'm doing as human" - it's more "how I'm doing in God's eyes" - which is an interesting question - but it is a different question and doesn't answer "how I'm doing as a human."
Most of them are too busy to give me a moment's thought.
Sure - but judgement from other people is obviously more "in your face" than judgement from God on a daily basis.
The fact that I see, however, is that since all of us are human and none of us are perfect, we dont so much collectively judge each other as hold each other to ever more difficult standards.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Holding each other to ever more difficult standards comes from judging people. Yet you say it's "not so much judging" each other... when that's exactly what it is. It doesn't seem to make any sense.
Sounds to me like you're attempting to force words to mean something else to get away from some idea you're afraid to discuss in your mind.
Oh, but we have to look Him in the eye.
Once? At the end of my life?
Easy peasy.
Again - this is one single judgement at one particular time in my life.
I have tens, hundreds, thousands (possibly more) people judging me and my actions every day of my life.
And you're attempting to say the single judgement at the end, that's not even in your face, and has no immediate consequences while we're alive... is harder to deal with? That's just... clearly wrong. It's so wrong the word "wrong" isn't enough to describe it.
It's like you're attempting to convince me that an inspector giving a 5 min. review of the building at the end of the build is going to be "more harsh" than an inspector that's glued to your hip and looking over your shoulder the entire 4 year build of the project. It's wronger than wrong.
Even if the inspector at the end is all-knowing... he would only be able to be equal to the one over your shoulder the entire time, not "more harsh." And you have the benefit of only going through it once, instead of all-day every-day the entire time.
His Spirit resides in some humans and if they look us in the eye, He effectively looks us in the eye!
Are you attempting to say that second-hand "effectively" anything is more direct than direct, first-hand things?
How much wronger-than-wrong are you trying to get to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Phat, posted 10-22-2022 9:44 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 11-01-2022 7:21 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(3)
Message 258 of 331 (900991)
11-03-2022 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
11-01-2022 7:21 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Phat writes:
I agree with everything you say and would only add that IF Jesus is God Incarnate that He is in effect one of the ants. God had to become an ant to understand ants.
But that's still not "a peer" of humans.
He's still God.
And went back to being God.
Might have a line of argument if Jesus stayed human, and died human, and never "returned" to God.
But that didn't happen.
So it's clear that God/Jesus/Holy-Spirit is not a peer of humanity.
And I think that judgment-by-peers is, sometimes, more important that judgement-by-anyone-else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 11-01-2022 7:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 11-04-2022 12:10 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 263 of 331 (901089)
11-04-2022 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Phat
11-04-2022 12:10 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Phat writes:
Addressing Stiles point, it appears that not ALL humans were Gods. Among themselves, however, they were all most definitely human and as a result, peers among themselves. One subgroup (Not ALL) was apparently in Communion with God, and it was the duty of these peers to influence their other peers(who were not yet chosen)
I don't think that addresses my point.
My point is that God is not a peer of humanity.
Like The President of The United States is not a peer of kindergartners.
I don't really think this point is arguable.
Unless you want to say that God is a lot weaker than most people think He is? Or maybe that people are more powerful than reality shows us to be?
It doesn't make any sense.
God/Jesus/HolySpirit cannot be peers of humanity. Because they're not human.
I didn't really think it was a tricky idea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 11-04-2022 12:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 11-04-2022 3:27 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 266 of 331 (901107)
11-04-2022 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
11-04-2022 3:27 PM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Phat writes:
Addressing Stiles's point, it appears that not ALL humans belonged to Jesus(or God.) Among them, however, were some who accepted the Spirit and thus had Gods Spirit while remaining human and peers amongst humanity. Some humans are apparently in Communion with God, and it was IS the duty of these peers to influence their other peers(who were are not yet chosen...because they themselves have not yet chosen. They did not choose, as of this writing.
I still don't see how this applies.
I'll attempt to break it down and you can show me where I'm wrong:
...it appears that not ALL humans belonged to Jesus(or God.) Among them, however, were some who accepted the Spirit and thus had Gods Spirit while remaining human and peers amongst humanity.
So... some humans exist that have God's Spirit and are still humans.
Therefore - these humans are still peers to humanity.
I would agree.
But I don't see how this is relevant.
My point is that God is not a peer to humans.
"Humans that have God's Spirit" (regardless of how true this is...) are still humans and peers to humans.
God still isn't human, and still isn't a peer to humans.
Some humans are apparently in Communion with God, and it was IS the duty of these peers to influence their other peers(who were are not yet chosen...because they themselves have not yet chosen.
Sure - these humans with God's Spirit try to influence their peers.
This still doesn't turn God into a peer of humanity. God still isn't a human.
They did not choose, as of this writing.
What does this have to do with God being a peer to humans?
Perhaps I need to define "peer."
Peer means: "someone of the same age, the same social position, or having the same abilities as other people in a group."
In this context it's "having the same abilities as other people."
God does not have the same abilities as humans. Isn't He supposed to be all great-and-stuff?
If God is all great-and-stuff... then He has abilities that humans do not.
Therefore God does not have the same abilities as humans.
Therefore God is not a peer to humans.
This doesn't mean God can't communicate with humans.
This doesn't mean God can't have human-people He communicates with that then communicate with non-God humans.
None of that changes the abilities of God to be equal to the abilities of humans.
Therefore, God still has abilities that humans do not.
Therefore, God is still not a peer to humans.
Does that help?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 11-04-2022 3:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:37 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 270 of 331 (901399)
11-09-2022 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Phat
11-05-2022 11:37 AM


Re: Did God Become An Ant In Order To Understand Humanity?
Phat writes:
So if you are alluding to the fact that the same criteria apply to Jesus...
I was not.
It's you who says Jesus and God are the same, I was trying to be respectful.
I was simply alluding to the fact that God is not a peer to humans, simply because God is God and humans are not gods.
...I can see how Jesus, even if He existed, would somehow not be easily approachable by you.
How so?
Personally, I would love for Jesus to be real and to have a chance to approach Him.
You seemingly do not trust anyone or anything that is more than a peer. Am I close?
No, not close at all.
I trust anyone or anything that's trustworthy. Trustworthy beings who are "more than peers" are some of the best kind to have - they can help with many things that are beyond me.
Being a peer or not has nothing to do with being trustworthy.
I'm simply saying that being a peer gives someone a unique view to judge someone else... they will know/understand the situation better than anyone else. It's simply the definition of peer.
Example:
We have two baseball players and a programmer.
Any of them can judge any of the others - it's a free country.
But it's obvious that the two baseball players will be able to judge each other in a unique way that the programmer will not be able to.
This has nothing to do with being trustworthy or "better."
It's just a simple fact.
Why wouldn't those in the same situation have a unique ability to judge each other - wouldn't their level of understanding each other be closer than anyone else's?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
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