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Author Topic:   Separation of church and state OK to Christians?
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 1 of 39 (193632)
03-23-2005 6:37 AM


This question was inspired by "The Church and Homosexual Marriage" thread, but seemed inappropriate to discuss there. So I'm opening a new thread.

Is it OK for people who believe in the bible to live in a country where the government is purely secular, i.e. where "church" is truly separated from "state" ?
I have a very poor bible education, but I grew up Roman Catholic. It's my understanding that it's both important for people of the church to live moral lives, but also to avoid participation in amoral activities / governments. Also, it's important to evangelize--to try and help people know Jesus and God, and to help them move away from their amoral behavior.
How can people of the church participate in an amoral government? How can it be OK to accept a separation of church and state?
Help me understand why I don't understand. Thanks.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by jar, posted 03-23-2005 10:26 PM Ben! has replied
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-23-2005 11:03 PM Ben! has replied
 Message 9 by arachnophilia, posted 03-24-2005 12:58 AM Ben! has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 39 (193679)
03-23-2005 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ben!
03-23-2005 6:37 AM


Would this be a Faith and Belief topic?

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This message is a reply to:
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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 3 of 39 (193766)
03-23-2005 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminJar
03-23-2005 11:41 AM


Sounds good to me.

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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 39 (193799)
03-23-2005 9:37 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 5 of 39 (193807)
03-23-2005 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ben!
03-23-2005 6:37 AM


The better question is would christians want a theocracy in this country?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 39 (193819)
03-23-2005 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ben!
03-23-2005 6:37 AM


A few points I think need to be considered.
It's my understanding that it's both important for people of the church to live moral lives,...
IMHO it's important for PEOPLE to live moral lives.
... but also to avoid participation in amoral activities / governments.
Not really. There is nothing wrong specifically with amorality. It comes down when speaking of Governments, to intruding on anothers right or wellbeing. In addition it's good for everyone to participate in Government.
Also, it's important to evangelize--to try and help people know Jesus and God, and to help them move away from their amoral behavior.
Again, I don't think that's quite right. It's good to help folk move towards moral behavior but the best way to do that is by example, not fiat.
The big thing I'd object to in your initial statement is that Secular implies Amoral? Almost by definition, Government will be involved with the issue of right and wrong.
How can it be OK to accept a separation of church and state?
Two entirely different spheres.
Religion relates to how GOD and the individual will get along. If you are by whatever standards going to hell, that is between you and GOD.
Government relates to how you and I will get along. The purpose of Govermnment (not the sole purpose but a major one) is to sanction my behavior such that it does not harm you.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 7 of 39 (193835)
03-23-2005 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ben!
03-23-2005 6:37 AM


what if you voted out the separation? ok. so say a bunch of southern baptists get elected. did you know that many southern baptists belive that roman catholics follow satan because they (blah blah blah crazy inserts go read some chick tracts blah blah. jackchick.com i believe). ok so they institute all kinds of laws that restrict your exercise of your religion. say, you can't have statues of mary round, you can't discuss saints, no ash wednesday service etc. what would you think then?
it is absolutely mandatory, in my opinion as a christian, that the government have no religious influence whatsoever. sure outlaw murder and all that but no rulings based on any religious dogma. why? because what if the other guy takes over. i don't wanna wear a veil any more than i want you to have to stop having a statue of mary. to each his own, thus the government must keep it's nose out of it.

This message is a reply to:
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PerfectDeath
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 39 (193851)
03-24-2005 12:18 AM


seperation of church and state have some plusses and some minuses to them.
for instance religions cannot (or are not supposed to) control how the government does things.
but at the same time the church is kinda like a private club, you can say "hey you can't do that here." (points to gay marrage) and teh govenment isn't allowed to put those people in. but it can be legislated.
i remember once when there were these male only golf courseswere guys could be guys and golf in peace away from women, but then women started saying "hey we want in their being sexist! so the poor guys trying to have some time away from women are forced to have women walking in around their place all upity about them being 'sexist'.
that is also something similar to the seperation of church and state.
cause if they were all controled by the government then we'd be commies
so there is the hole capitalist thing with us beiing free to do certain things as long as it doesn't cross into the state's line *couch*converting*cough*
i hate that >_<

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 9 of 39 (193861)
03-24-2005 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ben!
03-23-2005 6:37 AM


Is it OK for people who believe in the bible to live in a country where the government is purely secular, i.e. where "church" is truly separated from "state" ?
not only is it ok, it is ABSOLUTELY NECCESSARY.
separation of church and state, and the secular government is what allows freedom of religion. when the state holds a set of religious beliefs to be true, it excludes all other beliefs. instead, the state must disregard any faith at all, and thus allow every faith. the government has no business, right, or jurisdiction over the religion of its citizens. it is not even a matter that should come close to being governed.
as for avoiding amoral governments, not that a secular government is amoral, "give unto caesar..."

This message is a reply to:
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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 10 of 39 (193867)
03-24-2005 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by arachnophilia
03-24-2005 12:58 AM


separation of church and state, and the secular government is what allows freedom of religion.
This is part of my point. The second commandment speaks against freedom of religion. If Christians want others to be believers, to follow the commanments, why would they allow themselves to participate in a government where there's freedom of religion?
when the state holds a set of religious beliefs to be true, it excludes all other beliefs.
And that's exactly what Christians do. They are told by God to exclude all other beliefs.
I'm not asking if "we" should have a separation of church and state--I'm asking if Christians should be fighting to live in a country where there is NO separation of church and state.

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 Message 15 by arachnophilia, posted 03-24-2005 1:33 AM Ben! has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 11 of 39 (193869)
03-24-2005 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by coffee_addict
03-23-2005 9:50 PM


If that's the question you want to ask, then I strongly suggest you take it to another thread. Here, I'm interested in talking about whether Christians should be fighting to live in a country where there is NO separation of church and state.
Let me really be clear. I'm not asking if some Christians are fighting for it, or if you like it, or if you're bitter about it. I'm specifically asking if ALL Christians, based on the Bible, should be fighting for it.
Ben

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 39 (193870)
03-24-2005 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Ben!
03-24-2005 1:15 AM


The second commandment speaks against freedom of religion.
What makes you think that?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Ben!, posted 03-24-2005 1:15 AM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 13 of 39 (193871)
03-24-2005 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
03-23-2005 11:03 PM


...no rulings based on any religious dogma. why? because what if the other guy takes over. i don't wanna wear a veil any more than i want you to have to stop having a statue of mary.
lol. I thought Christians were a lot more idealistic than this. I thought there's no compromise of God's laws like that. Where are the martyrs of our modern age?!
But seriously, I'm not talking about what's the "right way" to govern a country or whatever. I'm really trying to talk about the ideals of the Christian religion, based on the Bible.
So... given that, via the 2nd commandment God demands there be no no freedom of religion, and given that no people are exempt from His law, shouldn't the Christian ideaology include no separation of church and state?
Ben

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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 14 of 39 (193874)
03-24-2005 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
03-24-2005 1:21 AM


Jar... I was getting to your post. Yours was the hardest, so I went for it last. But I'll go here first.
From Wikipedia,
"You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
Now I am quite sure Arachnophilia (and you?) may have a different take on this... but from my childhood, I took this (and maybe the first commandment as well?) to mean that there's no freedom of religion--there's only one God, and you better not worship any others, OR ELSE.
I've got open ears for a different view.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 15 of 39 (193878)
03-24-2005 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Ben!
03-24-2005 1:15 AM


This is part of my point. The second commandment speaks against freedom of religion. If Christians want others to be believers, to follow the commanments, why would they allow themselves to participate in a government where there's freedom of religion?
you're counting funny. but that's ok, i never could get a straight answer on how to count those. i count 13 or 14. this the verse in question?
quote:
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
two things i must bring up.
1. the covenant is just that -- a covenant. it is an agreement. god did something for them, they are to do something for god. they owe him, basically, and it's their duty. why "they" you ask? because unless this verse applies to you, the agreement doesn't either:
quote:
Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
2. the "them" in verse five applies to idols. it is a modification of the first bit, about making no graven images. strictly speaking, the two verse combined don't forbid practices like in the babylonian religion, where they would make images of themselves offering to an aniconic deity (like yahweh). they would also make images of their offerings (bronze serpent), or images of the seat of their god (cherubim). these are okay by the ten commandments.
however, when jeroboam does something similar with a calf (and it was probably the same thing, mind you) it's a sin. in other words, idolatry is a word thrown around to slander enemies.
and, like i said, the christian tradition is:
quote:
Mat 22:21 ...Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
jesus is separating religion from politics. because he has to, in order to keep judaism intact.
And that's exactly what Christians do. They are told by God to exclude all other beliefs.
no, they are told to have love and compassion on even their so-called enemies. this is combined with an earlier tradition of KILLING other beliefs.
I'm not asking if "we" should have a separation of church and state--I'm asking if Christians should be fighting to live in a country where there is NO separation of church and state.
and as a christian, i'm saying no we should not. because the government that mandates a faith does not neccessarily mandate MY faith. or YOUR faith. it allows us our choice on the matter, and that choice is cornerstone of salvation, is it not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Ben!, posted 03-24-2005 1:15 AM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
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