Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)

My apologies again Percy. I realize that my posts are embarrasingly long. I'm just trying to go into serious detail as to why I feel that Faith's position is inaccurate to some extent (And I've included his quotations so there will be no misunderstanding my own position in contrast to his).If I could sum it up in one statement: All that I'm saying is that Christ knows them -- and that this is more important than us knowing Christ.

We seem to be wandering over many different ideas so I'm going to try to take them in some order. We're getting near the end of this thread and so all I will do right now is try to pin down the questions so we can start threads to discuss each. Please look this list over and let me know if you think ita reasonable summary.

Possible Topics
• was the crucificion cruel and unnecessary?
• does the Bible prevent GOD from speaking to other people in other idioms?
• do we need to return to my reasons for believing everyone is saved unless they do something that makes it impossible?
• the issue of appearance of barbarity?
• the issue of redundancy (although that's the easiest)
  

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I very much appreciate the effort and detail that you put into defending your position. About the only criticism I have is in your trying to sum it up in one sentence like that as your position can't be condensed down into one sentence.As an active Christian I fully understand that none of us have a perfect understanding of God because it just isn't that simple. I have to say though, that I have never run across someone who is such a kindred spirit in the faith as what you are.I have been arguing from exactly the same viewpoint for years. I probably would have had more success making my point if I had your communication skills.I believe that the greatest modern Christian apologist is C.S. Lewis. I have read much of his work and it is my opinion that he would very much applaud your contribution to this discussion. I also want to applaud it, but then I'm no C.S. Lewis.

Hi Jar,I think if we go with 'was the crucifixion cruel and unnecessary' to begin with, then we can see what possible spin-off topics arise.The reason I kept going back to 'cruel' and 'barbaric' was to keep on topic.But I am interested in how you come to your conclusions, and how these conclusions ***may*** possibly have conflicts with the teachings of the Bible **as I understand it**.Please remember that I am not going to, in any shape or form, claim that your faith is wrong and unbiblical, I just find it difficult (at the moment) to harmonise it with what I previously believed.This is the only post that I will be able to make today, so there's no great hurry on my part to start this new topic off.Do you want me to start the new thread tomorrow with a brief outline of why I think that belief in the resurrection is necessary for salvation?If not, then we can proceed in any way you like.Brian.

Thanks GDR. I am a big C.S. Lewis fan. I guess I never realized how much of an influence he may have had on me.Blessings to you and your family. This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-11-2005 02:35 PM

I don't see the link between "all knowing" and "responsible for all destinies" that you attribute to be the responsibility of God.Is God responsible for what I say to you? Why can't I have any responsibility in the matter? Ask yourself that same question...oh I forgot that you don't believe in Him. So your argument is a mute point! No? And your point is....(?) Therefore the court orders God to serve 20 days! Sound ridiculous? I mean, blame anything and everything on Him! He died for us,right? All sin was taken by Him, right? So blame it ALL on Him! Yell and scream at Him! I think that you set Him up to be cruel and barbaric as a counterweight to your idea of yourself who you think to be human and somewhat loving, No? Then you can do away with all cruelty and barbarism by naming it as the human trait of religion!! Thus continues your war against organized religion! What I believe that you do not see is the fact that wishing something away does not make it cease to exist if it is not created within your own imagination!*Blink*I cannot believe I just said that!I have just declared myself to be a potential atheist!!Now what will I do with my life!Did I or did I not disprove the need to believe??*chuckle*Oh wait....I thought that I was Rrhain for a second! Sorry Brian! Now what were we talking about? Even IF the crucifixion was cruel, I maintain that it was necessary.
God is responsible...nay culpable, right?? After all, God created all of those who put His incarnate Son on the cross..and are we not ALL sons and daughters? Edited by AdminPhat, : spelling

Hi, Well, we aren’t responsible for creating ourselves are we?Everything that happens is part of God’s plan, He must know everything or He wouldn’t be God. Now, if He creates you and He knows that when you die you die rejecting the good news, then He is responsible. He knows that you will reject the message, yet He still created you. God knows what your condition will be when you die, you cannot change this, so why did God create you if He knows what condition you will be in when you die? No, you are responsible. However, whether or not you accept the Good News before you die is already known to God before you were even created. So, whatever you say and do in between that is up to you, it wont change whether or not you accept the gospel. The topic assumes that God is real. I have rejected the gospel, the entire story of Jesus life and death is not only absurd to me it actually bores me to tears, so it is difficult to imagine that I am going to die a Christian. I am not going to be ‘saved’. However, if you believe that you are going to be saved then I’d take the conditions of your salvation seriously. The thing to keep in mind is that God knows already who will be saved so your actions will fall into line accordingly if your name is in the book. The point is that God creates people who He knows will reject Christ, thus God is a barbarian. Why not? He created everything, He is the one who is incapable of doing anything right. That’s the myth yes. Whether it is true or not is another matter. Not yet. Why? That would be pointless. It may release some of the anger and frustration that some people feel towards God, but apart from letting off steam it isn’t going to achieve anything. God is a character in a book, we all need to realise that we should stop believing in fairytales when we are about 8 years old. Indeed, and this is the mistake that we decent people often make. We tend to expect God to live up to our moral standards when the Truth of the matter is that the God presented in the Bible is nowhere near as decent and respectable as the average human being. We place moral standards on God that He is simply incapable of living up to. But, it is a good point you raise. God only exists in the imagination. If I had three wishes, getting rid of organised religion wouldn’t be one of them. But, the Bible, if true, certainly paints God as being jealous and vengeful, He orders the slaughter of millions without blinking an eye. Why should the first an Egyptian farmer who has never heard of Moses or Hebrews have their first-born child killed? It is abusrd. Well, now that you don’t have to waste your time reading a fairytale book and preaching the gospel, maybe you can actually do something worthwhile with all that spare time you’ll have Yes! Wonder where he has got to. ‘Crucifiction’, dear me Phat, you have become an atheist after all, watch those Freudian slips!But, I think any fair minded person would agree that crucifixion was a terrible way to die. Three or four days on a cross, then eventual suffocation, must have been horrible. Of course, Jesus the wimp only lasted three hours, he should have eaten more porridge in the morning. Yes, it was necessary to quench the thirst for blood that Yahweh has. Yes, it all happened according to His plan. A plan He designed before anything was created, a plan in which He manipulates the players and scenery to make sure He gets what He wants.Brian.

You know Brian, I was thinking just the same thing the other day. The christian God must be evil, why, otherwise, does he play with us like mice in a maze otherwise?If he is all-powerful and all-seeing, he must already know which of us will pass his tests and fail, the winners and the losers. Why are we playing this game, why doesn't he just move all the winners to heaven now and shut down the maze? If he as powerful as the christians says, he could just summon all of the "winners" who have and will exist to Heaven. The only reason i can come up with is that he likes to fuck with our heads. Only an evil or mad God would act in such a fashion.

Careful, Brian! There may yet be another plot twist yet to come!
News Flash:
Theology professor, assuming Bible to be a book of fairytales for grownups, nevertheless finds himself trying to be a beliver if only to prove the point that it cannot be done once the rational mind has debunked the same! Quote: But God! You simply cannot exist! I am hallucinating of course!Funny thing, though...I just can't drink enough stout to get this blasted boring fairytale out of my mind! Why DID I choose to become a theology professor anyway??Brian, why DID you decide to study theology??

Then lets all mutiney, I say! Throw all of the Bibles overboard and line all of the fundie christians up to walk the plank! We will sail into a brave and exciting new world! Think about what it will be like! This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-13-2005 06:05 AM

I sense an attempt at preaching... (and an element of projection as well).

quote:

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Throw all of the Bibles overboard and line all of the fundie christians up to walk the plank! We will sail into a brave and exciting new world! Think about what it will be like!

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Can you imagine being a God, there is only one of you so you have no equal (or better) with which to keep yourself amused. You know what you will be getting for you birthdays and Christmases, there is no surprises for you, it must be boring as hell being God.But, seriously, the Bible is just trying to explain the human condition and what we can do to improve that condition, this is really all that any scriptures try to do.People have taken the Bible too seriously, if they read it as they would read any other ancient text then they would appreciate it more. I know I have a dig at it sometimes, but whe you take it as an historical document, place it in the various contexts in which it was written, it is an excellent source. It is people who try to make it into something it isnt that do it a disservice.It is examples such as you give above that highlight how much the Bible is simply a product of the human mind, like all histories are.Brian.

I sort of drifted into it. I was intending to be a history teacher and religious studies was supposed to be my second subject. But, I was spending weeks doing a history essay and geting a crappy grade, maybe a B- or B --, or even a C! Then my religious studies essays would be done in one or two nights and I would recieve very good marks, the lowest I recieved was a straight B, most were A- or A, same with my eductaion essays, I never got less than an A for any of my education essays. So, it made sense at the end of second year to stick with religious studies and education and drop history.But, it was studying with Keith Whitelam and John Drane that got me really interested in theology. I would say Keith Whitelam in particular got me interested in Old Testament theology. I just thought his teaching style was excellent, he was extremely helpful and nothing was too much trouble for him. His own area of expertise is the origins of ancient Israel, and it was his seminars on this subject that hooked me. I wanted to study that particular subject at a higher level, but I had an accident just before I finished my honours degree and I couldnt begin my masters until almost three years after my honours ended. By this time Keith was Chair at Sheffield but he recommended Alastair Hunter at Glasgow as an advisor and I was fortunate enough to be accepted into Glasgow.But, I love theology, although I am drifting more towards the historical/archaeological side of it now. I enjoy tutoring the adults at Glasgow as well, they all try really hard and are very conscientious so it makes it very enjoyable.I don't think that it is necessary to be a theist to enjoy theology, it may actually be the best stance to take when studying it.Brian.

Let's keep all the Bibles and just throw the fundies overboard!