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Author | Topic: Where Faith Comes From in the "moderate" Christian religions | |||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
I would need to see one species produce a completely different species. I would need to see life spring from the ground with not intervention required. But that wouldn't prove evolution, because neither of these things are evolution. You have been told time and time again that this is not what the TOE says. Why do you insist on misstating the TOE? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Peg responds to me:
quote: Yes. Why not? Have you considered the possibility that the problem is not with god but rather with your assumption of what god is and how god behaves? Consider the possibility that god does exist...just not the way you think.
quote: Of course not. But listen to what you're saying, Peg: The leader of the largest religious denomination in the world doesn't believe in god. That's your claim? The Pope isn't Catholic?
quote: Why not? What is it about the workings of a bacterial cell that makes it so different from any other cell? Are you saying human genetic duplication is perfect? No mutations are ever to be found anywhere when a human cell undergoes meiosis? The human mutation rate is about 1 per 1 billion base-pairs. With about 3 billion base-pairs in the human genome, that means compared to your parents, Peg, you are likely to have about 3 to 6 mutations. Or are you simply declaring by fiat that no, you don't? That the DNA you inherited from your parents was perfectly replicated, no possibility for error?
quote: Huh? Most of the lawn died, Peg. What on earth do you mean by "survive" when the overwhelming majority died? You've completely ignored the facts, Peg: If there were no mutation, then the entire lawn should die. If there were no change in the genome from generation to generation, then every single bacterium in the lawn is a perfect genetic clone of the single ancestor of all of them. Thus, if it was susceptible to T4 phage, then every single one of them is susceptible and thus, they all die. But the fact that the entire lawn does not die isn't an indication of "adaptation." Remember: If there is no evolution, then the entire lawn necessarily and specifically acts in concert: If one dies, they all die. If one lives, they all live. If one of the bacteria can "adapt" to the presence of T4 phage, then all of them can "adapt" to it and thus they all live. There is no possibility for some to live and some to die if there is no evolution. So the fact that we see some living while the vast majority die is proof positive of evolution. So if mutation happens to bacteria which leads to evolution, why is it nothing else does? What is so special about bacteria that only they evolve?
quote: That has been done. Multiple times. Both in the lab and in the field. You've been shown the references before. I have personally begged you (and am doing so again right now) to go to the library and look at the literature for yourself. Why do you continue to claim that it has never been seen? When are you going to do your homework?
Observed Instances of SpeciationSome More Observed Speciation Events Speciation PRATT CB910: No new species have been observed Lactobacillus uvarum sp. nov.--a new lactic acid bacterium isolated from Spanish Bobal grape must.Maes-Lzaro R, Ferrer S, Rossell-Mora R, Pardo I. ENOLAB - Laboratorio de Microbiologa Enolgica, Departamento de Microbiologa y Ecologa, Facultad de Biologa, Universidad de Valencia, Dr. Moliner 50, 46100 Burjasot, Valencia, Spain. PMID: 18930365 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Microbacterium invictum sp. nov., isolated from homemade compost.Vaz-Moreira I, Lopes AR, Faria C, Sprer C, Schumann P, Nunes OC, Manaia CM.ESB-UCP; PMID: 19567581 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] Humibacter albus gen. nov., sp. nov., isolated from sewage sludge compost.Vaz-Moreira I, Nobre MF, Ferreira AC, Schumann P, Nunes OC, Manaia CM.Escola Superior de Biotecnologia, Universidade Catlica Portuguesa, 4200-072 Porto, Portugal. PMID: 18398211 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] That last is interesting because not only is it a new species ("sp. nov."), but also it is a new genus ("gen. nov.") The information is out there, Peg. You simply need to turn off the computer, go to the library, and look it up. Talk to your local university biology department for assistance. Go to the local natural history museum and speak to the curator. When was the last time you were in a library? When are you going to do your homework? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Peg writes:
quote: Yes, you can. I just showed you how. You just agreed that you could. Why have you changed your story?
quote: There's so much wrong in that statement that it's hard to know where to begin. First: What's so special about bacteria that only they can evolve?Second: What makes you think that only bacteria have been observed to speciate? You've been given the references, Peg, on multiple occasions. Why are you suddenly changing your story?
quote: It disproves your assumptions about how god behaves, yes. Who are you to tell god what to do? God can't create life that evolves?
quote: Ah, yes...the old, "More and more scientists are 'questioning' evolution every day!" This is a bunch of bullshit, Peg, and you've been shown the evidence why. Why are you suddenly changing your story?
quote: So now you're saying that evolution has been directly observed. There you go changing your story yet again. Do you even know what your own argument is or are you simply in contrarian mode and whatever your opponent says, you deny it?
quote: So you think you can put god in the box to be poked, prodded, and experimented upon? Well, people have tried and so far, god seems quite stubborn when it comes to manifesting. Attempts to pray to god to affect outcome have led to no positive change in outcome (and some, in fact, show a negative change). So help us out: What sort of experiment did you have in mind that would allow one to conclude the presence of god?
quote: No, they don't. Scientists publish their work and request other people who have a vested interest in proving them wrong to go over their work, replicate it, and see if they can find fault with it. If a dominant paradigm is overturned, then they hand you the Nobel Prize, you are considered a genius, and the scientific community beats a path to your door trying to learn from you. Theists tend to keep their "mysteries" hidden, brand those who question their work as "heretics," and seek out to destroy those who would find fault with the work. Do it loud enough, and they'll chase you down and kill you for your blasphemy. How on earth is that "similar"? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Peg responds to me:
quote: Huh? That's biogenesis, not evolution. Evolution doesn't have anything to do with the origin of life. It is only about how it diversified after it began. Do you even understand the difference? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Peg writes:
quote: Huh? Are you saying the bacteria didn't evolve? Are you changing your story yet again?
quote: Huh? Why does that matter? Are you saying that chromosomes in humans don't mutate when they replicate? When a gametocyte undergoes meiosis in humans, it is always 100% perfectly replicated, no chance for any error, ever? What is so special about bacteria that only they evolve? That only their genome replicates imperfectly? If you agree that no cell replicates perfectly every single time, Peg, then you necessarily agree to evolution. All species. All the time.
quote: Well, nothing like our current bacteria, but something somewhat like it, yes. Are you saying human cells replicate perfectly every single time? Only bacteria cells replicate imperfectly? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Peg writes:
quote: Huh? The leader of the largest religious denomination in the world doesn't have faith? Is that what you're saying?
quote: But you just agreed that the bacteria evolved. You're changing your story yet again. Do you even understand your own argument? Do you even have an argument or are you just automatically gainsaying whatever you hear? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Peg responds to DrAdequate:
quote: The ones you were told before. Do we really need to repeat them or are you capable of remembering things that happened more than 10 minutes ago? When are you going to do your homework? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Peg responds to PaulK:
quote: Huh? Where on earth did this come from? The answer is quite clear cut: Science uses all observations it can get. Some of those observations will be direct such as the experiment I gave you that allows you to observe evolution right in front of your eyes in less than a week for very little money. Some of those observations will be indirect such as genome sequencing and morphological analysis.
quote: They don't just "say" it can, Peg. They actually do. I showed you how. You agreed that evolution happened. And now you're changing your story yet again. Since we can observe evolution happening right in front of our eyes both in the lab and in the field, since it is so easy to do that a high school student can do it, why would you have us lie about it?
quote: No, Peg. You say you can't directly observe it, but you have shown that your knowledge of the state of the science is not exactly reliable. For example, you just agreed that you can see evolution happen in a petri dish right in front of your eyes and now you're changing your story.
quote: Huh? You're acting as if direct observation and the fossil record are somehow mutually exclusive. You do realize that the two actually reinforce each other, yes? That we can watch it happening right now in front of our eyes and that we can see the morphological changes that happened to life in the past is very strong evidence that evolution is the cause for the diversification of life upon this planet.
quote: No, not really. There are gaps with regard to species, but when it comes to higher taxonomic levels, the fossil record is chock full of transitionals.
quote: No. The reason why creationist "belief in things they cannot see" is not accepted is because the claims of creationists cannot be replicated. You are free to perform the E. coli experiment on your own and see if you get the same results. In fact, I'd very much like you to do so in order for you to get some idea of how biology happens first hand.
quote: Incorrect. Instead, it's like saying, "This is a screwdriver, but you seem to think it's a hammer." Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Peg writes:
quote: It can. Are you saying god can be observed? Are you saying we have observed god creating? God is willing to be put in the box and be subjected to poking, prodding, and experimentation? The difference between scientific observations and religious observations is that scientific observations can be replicated by anybody anywhere who is willing to run the experiment. That's why I keep telling you about the E. coli experiment: It's something you can do. You can actually watch evolution happen right in front of your eyes. What sort of experiment were you thinking of running that would allow us to observe god creating ex nihilo?
quote: Because the evidence is not consistent with the creationist description of what happened. Surely you understand how logic works: If A, then B. Not B, therefore not A. This is called the contrapositive. If creationism is true, then we should see certain things in the world. If we don't see them, then we necessarily conclude that creationism isn't true. Creationism espouses sudden appearance of organisms with no connection to what came before. However, we don't see that. Instead, we see a deeply interconnected evolution of life over time. Therefore, creationism isn't true. That's why the observation of the physical universe is evidence for evolution and not creation: None of the evidence is consistent with the claims of creationism. Your complaint is equivalent to complaining that because we can show that 2 + 2 = 4, that is somehow unfair to those who insist that it equals 5. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Peg writes:
quote: But you just agreed that it was a fact. I gave you an experiment that directly shows evolution happening right in front of your eyes and you agreed. Now you're changing your story. Do you have any principles at all? Since we can observe evolution happening right in front of our eyes, both in the lab and in the field, across multiple species, since we can see the fossil record clearly showing the evolution of all life, why would you have us lie and say it isn't a fact? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Peg writes:
quote: So why haven't they published? It certainly isn't because of some conspiracy against creationists. Overturning the dominant paradigm in a field is the dream of scientists everywhere. They give you the Nobel Prize. It's worth more than a million dollars. That's a huge incentive to do so, so why is it that creationism can't get past peer review? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
I can't see this one ever properly getting back on-topic.
Closing. Adminnemooseus New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts. Report a problem etc. type topics:
Report Technical Problems Here: No. 1 Report Discussion Problems Here: No. 2 Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], [thread=-17,-45], [thread=-19,-337], [thread=-14,-1073] Admin writes:
It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon. There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot. Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source |
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