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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 541 of 794 (887904)
08-25-2021 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by Phat
08-25-2021 2:41 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:
Would it really matter whether God knew the outcome if, in fact, the individual had plenty of time to choose his path more wisely?
Why do you keep asking contradictory questions? If God knew the outcome in advance then the individual could not have chosen it from free will. Whatever happened was preordained.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 2:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:17 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 542 of 794 (887907)
08-25-2021 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 530 by Phat
08-25-2021 2:48 AM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Phat writes:
I think I will argue that in the hypothetical, at the point of the initial "war in heaven" and angelic rebellion, God would have had to have not known the outcome but rather simply had allowed the possibility.
So for some things God is all-knowing and for other things he isn't?
My argument may not be as definite concerning human destiny. The sides have been chosen before the first human was born. Thus, God's foreknowledge at this point in no way condemns the Deity as being evil.
You're just running words together now while making no sense. Foreknowledge of evil prior to Adam is no different than foreknowledge of evil after Adam. If God is eternal, omniscient and all-knowing then God's foreknowledge is unchanging across all time. The question, "What did he know and when did he know it?" doesn't apply to God because He always knew all of it.
In this sense, Jesus was the 1st Adam rather than the 2nd Adam. The only point that you could argue is that humans were limited (in a broad sense) to only two choices. And in that you have an argument.
You're making things up again.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 2:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 543 of 794 (887908)
08-25-2021 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by Phat
08-25-2021 10:28 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:
'm asking you (in the hypothetical) to defend the fate of the victim, judging God based on the victims choices or lack thereof.
Bullshit Phat, you really can't be as stupid as you insist on showing.
If God is the creator of all, seen and unseen and has foreknowledge the the individual has no choice.
There is no possible way to defend the actions of that God OR justify the fate of the victim.
A God with foreknowledge who also is the creator is simply evil.
Period.
Full Stop.
There can be no justification.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 10:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:27 PM jar has replied
 Message 585 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:10 AM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 544 of 794 (887910)
08-25-2021 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by Phat
08-25-2021 2:27 AM


Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
Phat writes:
So are you suggesting that God was responsible for Lucifer's decision to become autonomous?
Of course. God is responsible for Lucifer.
Phat writes:
If so, how else could future civilizations be given a choice if there was only one door through which to go?
Why is it important for them to be "given a choice"? As far as I can see, the "choice" is just your cop-out that absolves God of any responsibility.
Phat writes:
And the only reason for us discussing these hypotheticals between religious and nonreligious thinking is that there are many many believers who will live in this world along with our children and the thinking processes and beliefs will continually clash.
You continue to make the same mistake: It isn't believers versus unbelievers. You have a lot more problems with other believers than unbelievers have with you.
Phat writes:
Ultimately whether or not God and Jesus are reality or myth, the effect of such beliefs will impact the future.
The Simpsons will also impact the future.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 2:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 9:24 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 545 of 794 (887912)
08-25-2021 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by Phat
08-25-2021 3:12 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:
After all, If Jesus had been running the place, would He let everyone join or only the Southern Baptists!
And if you were running the place, you wouldn't let Jesus join.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:22 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 546 of 794 (887913)
08-25-2021 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Percy
08-25-2021 1:45 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Percy writes:
If God knew the outcome in advance then the individual could not have chosen it from free will.
(Edited) What other way could the individual receive it? Why does the individual not have a choice? They are going to choose something and we humans have no idea what God knows or doesn't know about our future choices anyway.
The answer is not that God is evil for having foreknowledge and not acting on it. The answer is that humans have a responsibility to choose wisely in the timeframe we are allowed on this earth.
And if we cant freely choose our destiny (being limited to this point in time) we can at least choose our behavior and actions on a daily basis.
My answer to foreknowledge vs free will is simply that we can't know. Thus it is our responsibility to believe and do. And it never hurts to ask God for help, either. If He turns out to be evil, we are screwed when we die unless there is another yet un-named victim advocate waiting in the wings of the cosmos. I have no problem with the traditional apologetic story about Jesus being eternal with GOD (aka God's human character) and sacrificing Himself as a ransom for human bondage ...which admittedly was caused by God allowing satan to rebel and have his own clubhouse. Placing God on trial takes a lot of guts. Why does everyone focus on it all being Gods responsibility rather than satans deception and tempting?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Percy, posted 08-25-2021 1:45 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 568 by Percy, posted 08-27-2021 9:56 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 547 of 794 (887914)
08-25-2021 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by ringo
08-25-2021 3:17 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
ringo writes:
And if you were running the place, you wouldn't let Jesus join.
Maybe and maybe not. I would be judged accordingly. If I thought that (random street guy) Jesus was out to hustle and survive and if I sensed that my spare change could be better used elsewhere, I likely wouldn't let Jesus (aka homeless street guy) in the door. I would of course be judged accordingly.
Let me ask you this: If Jesus were running the place, would everyone have to sell all that they have in order to get in? Or is that your favorite scripture due to the fact that you were a rebel and owed back taxes?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by ringo, posted 08-25-2021 3:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by ringo, posted 08-25-2021 3:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 548 of 794 (887916)
08-25-2021 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by jar
08-25-2021 2:15 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
jar writes:
There can be no justification.
You make similar assumptions that Percy made. Who are humans to define God's responsibilities, limits, and duties? In the hypothetical, there is a spiritual explanation. Do you have any idea how the spiritual world is presupposed to work? *long pause*
I didn't think so.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 2:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2021 3:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 551 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 4:09 PM Phat has replied
 Message 552 by AZPaul3, posted 08-25-2021 5:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 549 of 794 (887918)
08-25-2021 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by Phat
08-25-2021 3:22 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:
Let me ask you this: If Jesus were running the place, would everyone have to sell all that they have in order to get in?
Let me ask you this: Do you read my posts at all? Because I have answered that question several times in several threads.
Jesus was pretty clear: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. What must you do to be saved? Sell what you have and give to the poor. He didn't mention any exceptions.
The disciples believed Him. The widow with two mites believed Him. (Even the Old Testament widow who fed Elijah believed the message before He was born.) The early church believed Him. Etc.
Why don't you believe Him?
And why do you keep asking the same inane question when the answer will always be the same? Write it down if you can't remember it. Embroider it on a pillow.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 550 of 794 (887920)
08-25-2021 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Phat
08-25-2021 3:27 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
quote:
You make similar assumptions that Percy made. Who are humans to define God's responsibilities, limits, and duties? I
Nobody is defining any of these - except that you are proposing limits. (I point out that responsibility for something happening is not A responsibility - something that should be done)
quote:
In the hypothetical, there is a spiritual explanation
Apparently the explanation is that God is a cruel child who blames his playthings. Aside from proposing limits n God that’s pretty much all you offer.
quote:
Do you have any idea how the spiritual world is presupposed to work?
However God wants it to work - if God exists and is all Christians commonly claim. Which is all we need to know for this discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 551 of 794 (887921)
08-25-2021 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Phat
08-25-2021 3:27 PM


Basics Phat
Phat writes:
You make similar assumptions that Percy made.
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
I am NOT making any assumptions.
If God is the Creator of all that is, seen and unseen ... That is not an assumption it is a claim made by Christians about the God they claim to worship.
If God has foreknowledge ... That is not an assumption it is a claim made by Christians about the God they claim to worship.
IF those are true then if anyone ends up damned it can only be Gods fault and responsibility.
The God created the human and had foreknowledge that the human would be damned.
There are no assumptions in anything in this post Phat.
Maybe you simply don't even know the meaning of 'assumption'.
AbE: And I have a very clear understanding of how the spiritual world works. It works by making shit up and avoiding all honesty or reality or truths.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 5:50 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 552 of 794 (887922)
08-25-2021 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Phat
08-25-2021 3:27 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Who are humans to define God's responsibilities, limits, and duties?
His creators. He has no choice but to do exactly what humans conjured him to do, omnipotence and all.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 553 of 794 (887923)
08-25-2021 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by jar
08-25-2021 4:09 PM


Basics, jar. Read the hypothetical.
Lets go through this hypothetical slowly.
First, explain to me why God should not have foreknowledge? (Remember...according to *your* hypothetical, ALL Gods are made-up. )
So again....challenge my apologetic hypothetical....don't holler at me. Your anger and frustration speak volumes. And you cant simply attempt to reframe my argument. You are free to claim that absolute foreknowledge is evil if anyone is damned. You are free to claim that all Gods are made up. My challenge for you is twofold.
  • Become a victim's advocate for a hypothetical human who ends up sending himself to hell (or at least ineligible for heaven) Explain why God is evil for sending satan to hell and thus setting the place up. (Potential evil vs actualized evil)
  • Given that some argue that humans create any and all Gods (Except perhaps GOD Himself) explain why Jesus is not necessary to accept for every man, woman, and child. Explain the loophole that allows for God to save everybody and for nobody to be damned. Keep in mind that you are defending the satan of classical apologetics.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 551 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 4:09 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 554 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 8:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 558 by herebedragons, posted 08-26-2021 9:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    (1)
    Message 554 of 794 (887924)
    08-25-2021 8:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 553 by Phat
    08-25-2021 5:50 PM


    Re: Basics, jar. Read the hypothetical.
    Phat writes:
    First, explain to me why God should not have foreknowledge? (Remember...according to *your* hypothetical, ALL Gods are made-up. )
    LOL Think Phat, you might even like it. It is not me but Ignorant Christianity that makes that claim while refusing to think about the consequences.
    Phat writes:
    Become a victim's advocate for a hypothetical human who ends up sending himself to hell (or at least ineligible for heaven) Explain why God is evil for sending satan to hell and thus setting the place up. (Potential evil vs actualized evil)
    There is no need or possible way anyone could be an advocate for the victim. God screwed the sucker and it is a done deal.
    Phat writes:
    Given that some argue that humans create any and all Gods (Except perhaps GOD Himself) explain why Jesus is not necessary to accept for every man, woman, and child. Explain the loophole that allows for God to save everybody and for nobody to be damned. Keep in mind that you are defending the satan of classical apologetics.
    No one has claimed that everyone should be saved. Stop asserting yet more falsehoods Phat.
    Really try to think.

    My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 553 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 5:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 555 of 794 (887927)
    08-25-2021 9:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 544 by ringo
    08-25-2021 3:15 PM


    Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
    ringo writes:
    Why is it important for them to be "given a choice"? As far as I can see, the "choice" is just your cop-out that absolves God of any responsibility.
    It is a trust issue. You always seem eager to pin the bad stuff on God and ignore the presence of a fallen angel who in reality caused us to doubt and mistrust God and each other. Granted it is hypothetically more of a copout to blame satan, but putting the Creator of all seen and unseen on trial if even one of His precious little creations ends up damned seems weird to me. Satan was allowed to exist in order to test our hearts and souls. The temptation is akin to tempering us. Turning bnttle iron into solid steel.
    God's foreknowledge is unknown and thus irrelevant to us. We do our best and hope that when we die we find that He is good.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 544 by ringo, posted 08-25-2021 3:15 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 557 by Percy, posted 08-26-2021 8:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 559 by herebedragons, posted 08-26-2021 9:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 561 by ringo, posted 08-26-2021 11:47 AM Phat has not replied

      
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