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Author Topic:   Atheism is a belief (Why Atheists don't believe part 2)
Larni
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 286 of 302 (316794)
06-01-2006 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by riVeRraT
05-31-2006 3:20 PM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
RRat writes:
So you've never seen a baby get scared about something that wasn't himself?
Rat, please google Theory of Mind. You will see how irrelavent that sentence is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2006 3:20 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 287 of 302 (316796)
06-01-2006 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by ohnhai
05-31-2006 8:30 PM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
I stand corrected and no appologies needed mate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by ohnhai, posted 05-31-2006 8:30 PM ohnhai has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 288 of 302 (316799)
06-01-2006 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by riVeRraT
05-31-2006 3:44 PM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
RRat writes:
A default position can only be attained when we reach theory of mind?
No, this default position (when we are first conscious) of no belief in supernatural entities.
People who do not believe in such things either never have (because there was no compelling reason to change the default position) or have changed their default to 'belief in the supernatural' and then through experienced reasessed that change (from the default position of no belief in th supernatural) and made a choice not to.
You have two answers to the OP 'Why Atheists don't believe?'
1: There is no change in the default position re: belief in the supernatual which is initially 'there are no gods'
2a: There is a change to the default position re: belief in the supernatual which is initially 'there are no gods' and one chooses to believe there are supernatural entities in the universe e.g. xian god.
2b: This belief is then reasessed and found wanting and the default position is re-aquired.
How does this not answer the OP?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2006 3:44 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2006 10:26 AM Larni has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 289 of 302 (316809)
06-01-2006 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by alacrity fitzhugh
05-31-2006 7:27 PM


not into later did you state
programming with college!
It's right there in black and white. Not only did I remember what I typed, I gave a link to it. It’s not my fault if you didn't get it, that is why I directed you to it again, so you know exactly what I was talking about.
This was rhe first of your attacks on me. I have yet to point out any
word that you misspelled.
I always get attacked about my spelling here on this board. I really don't care how I spell things, but I have learned that to be taken seriously, you should put some effort in your spelling, especially if your going to tell me to take English, and then miss-spell the word.
It will add to your credibility.
Way of topic son. Its about atheist beliefs
I guess you only go off-topic when you think it's ok?
Don't dodge the question, and then you'll see just how on-topic it is.
Oh, and I ain't your son.
Now all this has been entertaining for sure, but you'll have to
prove there is no God,
Already did in post 213 now you prove I'm wrong!
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner. Not only can he prove something, he can prove there is no God with a single post in an internet forum. WOW! How do you do it, what's your secret, please share it with all of us, here is some of what you said:
quote:
It's also plainly obvious that god does not
exist, and is just as childish.
It's plainly obvious, that's brilliant, you should be a professor!
Here's another excerpt from Message 213
quote:
because maker-man did not create him
Oh...because, WOW, how prophetic
quote:
To hope for
absolution, for wrongs you have done, from any deity, is immature.
Hey, you confused with being forgiven by men with being forgiven by God, and then called it immature. Well that proves there is no God, I am convinced. Tomorrow, I will start living my life as if there was no God, because of....well because of.....shit, I just don't know why because?
I guess your above God, and the scientific method, a new first!
This is called a predetermined stereo-type.You concede the point by
Ok, let's clarify again. I am not prejudice against atheist.
Was that simple enough?
I am not prejudice against anyone, as far as I know. If I am, then it is in ignorance, and I need to improve myself.
What would jesus say?
Matthew 21:12
[ Jesus at the Temple ] Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.
Well, He would either explain to me why I am wrong and feel I am right, or tell me I was right, and forgive me either way, as I would try to forgive you.
Just a lost
young man who still is looking for his path. maybe someday you will
you someday find!
peace?
Well the rest of your post was filled with colorful boxes and quotes and things, but I don't think it said much, so I won't even address it. I think if you read through this post, and some of my others, you might find out a little more about me. Just click on my name, and you can access every post I've ever written. You won't agree with many things I said, and I won't agree with you, but by no means do I hate you, or anyone else here.
As far as finding my way, I am doing just fine. I am 40 years old, have 5 kids, a leader in a Christian rock band, vice president of Hope for the Nations US, own my own HVAC and plumbing business, own my own little log cabin on a lake upstate NY, and I love my family. I think I am doing just fine.
You are new here, and most of us come in here making outrageous assertions, as I did too, so I give you the benefit of the doubt. If you last here, you'll make a fine addition to the community. We can all learn from each other, and experience joy in discussing each others opinions, and known facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 05-31-2006 7:27 PM alacrity fitzhugh has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 290 of 302 (316811)
06-01-2006 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by AdminOmni
05-31-2006 8:07 PM


Re: Shhhhantih...Admin request
Oops, sorry, saw this after I did my last reply. I hope it was civilized enough, and I was trying to bring peace to it, in my closing statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by AdminOmni, posted 05-31-2006 8:07 PM AdminOmni has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 291 of 302 (316812)
06-01-2006 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by ohnhai
05-31-2006 8:00 PM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
dogma:
# A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
# An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.
# A principle or belief or a group of them: “The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present” (Abraham Lincoln).
I think your statement falls under this part: An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion,
As by your own admission: This is an open and painfully honest statement of my belief
I don't see the difference...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by ohnhai, posted 05-31-2006 8:00 PM ohnhai has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by RickJB, posted 06-01-2006 10:24 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 292 of 302 (316813)
06-01-2006 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by nator
05-31-2006 9:07 PM


Re: On 'isms' and redness
Did you ever go to a secular college, rat, or are you just repeating propaganda again?
I've taken some college courses, but never experienced this in college, only in high school. Some of my friends have experienced it in college though, I wouldn't call it propaganda.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by nator, posted 05-31-2006 9:07 PM nator has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 293 of 302 (316814)
06-01-2006 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by nator
05-31-2006 9:33 PM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
Ok, I got it now.

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 Message 277 by nator, posted 05-31-2006 9:33 PM nator has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 294 of 302 (316816)
06-01-2006 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by nator
05-31-2006 9:39 PM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
quote:Not being able to believe doesn't make you an atheist.
Sure it does.
Then being able to believe makes you a theist?
I don't see the logic.
If one lacks the ability of belief, then we cannot judge what that person would believe or not and then label it. Atheist does not mean lack of belief, it means dis-belief, or belief that there is no God. It's a non-issue. It's like saying your going to go drive a car, and you don't have one.
Will you stop responding to me multiple times?
OK, then everybody is born an Agnostic?
No, because agnostic is some sort of belief also.
Theist, atheist, and agnostic, are labels left to only those who can posess the capability to believe. If we are born without the capability, then there is no default position of belief.
Edited by riVeRraT, : edited to respond to schraf multiple posts, I guess she wants the end of the thread already.

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 295 of 302 (316817)
06-01-2006 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by PaulK
06-01-2006 2:57 AM


Re: On 'isms' and redness
Therefore under that definition of atheism there cannot be an atheist dogma.
Are you thinking that all atheist must follow the dogma?
Because I feel the dogma can be specific to each indiviual, or groups of individuals who feel the same way. Since it is a belief, whether true or not, then it doesn't have to be a written law.
Under the definition of atheism as a belief that God does not exist you have one belief but you need to show that it fits the rest of the definition of "dogma".
That is the start of the dogma, then increases when you ask why.
The first word in that definition is "authoritative" - so where is the relevant "authority" ?
Still don't know what you mean by that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by PaulK, posted 06-01-2006 2:57 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by PaulK, posted 06-01-2006 10:54 AM riVeRraT has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5251 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 296 of 302 (316818)
06-01-2006 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by riVeRraT
06-01-2006 10:07 AM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
riverrat writes:
I think your statement falls under this part: An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion,
As by your own admission: This is an open and painfully honest statement of my belief
Dead wrong.
1. Ohnhai has not claimed any authority for his position.
2. Nor is he closed to the possibility that he might be mistaken.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2006 10:07 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2006 10:28 AM RickJB has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 297 of 302 (316820)
06-01-2006 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Larni
06-01-2006 9:05 AM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
I understand theory of mind now.
There is no change in the default position re: belief in the supernatual which is initially 'there are no gods'
To even say that requires the ability to believe, or theory of mind. So I disagree. Atheism is not a default position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Larni, posted 06-01-2006 9:05 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-01-2006 10:37 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 300 by Larni, posted 06-01-2006 10:43 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 298 of 302 (316821)
06-01-2006 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by RickJB
06-01-2006 10:24 AM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
By definition, it doesn't have to be exclusively an authoritive position, it can be just a statement of belief, or ideas.
If he could be wrong, then he would be agnostic, no?

This message is a reply to:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3971
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 299 of 302 (316822)
06-01-2006 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by riVeRraT
06-01-2006 10:26 AM


Re: default position / Also, getting close to 300 message closing point
A mixed admin mode / non-admin mode message.
This topic will soon be closed. Of course, there probably will be yet another sequel topic. I suggest someone try to pick out a specific point to discuss, rather than having another broad based "Atheism" topic. - End of admin mode input.
To even say that requires the ability to believe, or theory of mind. So I disagree. Atheism is not a default position.
So riVeRrat, were you born with a belief in God? If not, and I think such was the case, then you were born an atheist (soft variety - "No belief in God").
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2006 10:26 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 300 of 302 (316824)
06-01-2006 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by riVeRraT
06-01-2006 10:26 AM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
RRat writes:
To even say that requires the ability to believe, or theory of mind.
Incorrect.
You do not have to be aware of something to not believe it is true. The default state needs no a priori concepts to have no belief in gods.
Having no concept of xian doctorine means you have no belief in the xian god.
That is to say when we are toddlers (at default) we have no knowledge and cannot be said to believe or disbelieve. There is no preprogrammed knowledge in humans.
We may only choose to alter that default position when we are exposed to concepts.
How many time do I have to repeat this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2006 10:26 AM riVeRraT has not replied

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