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Author Topic:   Atheism is a belief (Why Atheists don't believe part 2)
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 241 of 302 (316542)
05-31-2006 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by ohnhai
05-31-2006 10:10 AM


Well...Yes and No!
Ohnhai writes:
The majority of Atheists would honestly state:
I Freely admit that my belief in the non-existence of the God/s could be wrong. As I can’t prove 100% their lack of existence it would be dishonest of me to say other wise. Though I firmly and resolutely BELIVE that the God/s do NOT exist, IF I was to come across some evidence that was UNDENIABLE, that proved the existence of the God/s then I would have to re-adjust my world view accordingly.
You would be hard pressed to get the majority of Theists to honestly state:
I Freely admit that my belief in the existence of the God could be wrong. Though I believe God to exist, it would be dishonest of me not to acknowledge as a human I am not infallible. Though I firmly and resolutely BELIVE that the God/s Do exist, IF I was to come across some evidence that was UNDENIABLE, that undermined his existence, then I would have to re-adjust my world view accordingly.
I absolutely agree that you have outlined the two great statements that highlight the gulf between two peoples. It is also a general statement since you can substitute evolution for GOD or Flat Earth for GOD or any other strongly held belief and the division still remains.
I do disagree though with the statement that it would be hard to get the majority of Theists to agree that is found in your second paragraph. Theists too are often capable of reasonable, rational thought and acknowledging when we got it wrong.
The big difference between the Theistic and Atheistic positions is that the Theists, if right, have a BIG bonus that the Atheists can never have.
If the Atheists are right, when the Theist dies, that is it, there is just nothing afterwards.
BUT... if the Theist is right, we get to stand there at the Pearly Gates to welcome all our Atheist friends and say "Told you so!" I have already signed up to be on CrashFrog's welcoming committe and have a place set for him at the great fish fry and BBQ.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by ohnhai, posted 05-31-2006 10:10 AM ohnhai has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by nator, posted 05-31-2006 9:27 PM jar has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 242 of 302 (316543)
05-31-2006 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by ohnhai
05-31-2006 10:10 AM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
ohnhai writes:
The majority of Atheists would honestly state:
I Freely admit that my belief in the non-existence of the God/s could be wrong. As I can’t prove 100% their lack of existence it would be dishonest of me to say other wise. Though I firmly and resolutely BELIVE that the God/s do NOT exist, IF I was to come across some evidence that was UNDENIABLE, that proved the existence of the God/s then I would have to re-adjust my world view accordingly.
Is this not the position of the agnostic?
ohnhai writes:
You would be hard pressed to get the majority of Theists to honestly state:
I Freely admit that my belief in the existence of the God could be wrong. Though I believe God to exist, it would be dishonest of me not to acknowledge as a human I am not infallible. Though I firmly and resolutely BELIVE that the God/s Do exist, IF I was to come across some evidence that was UNDENIABLE, that undermined his existence, then I would have to re-adjust my world view accordingly.
That, either way you slice it, is the difference between Atheistic , and Theistic belief.
As a desription of a theist I concur.
However my point was that the default position of every human being is that of non-belief in religious doctorine and that we make an active choice by ascribing to a religion. Someone who is not religious only needs to make a chice about religions he has been exposed to.
You are right that a child bought up exposed to a pure xian culture would only be capable of being a xian or not xian.
No indoctorination, no xian (or what ever).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by ohnhai, posted 05-31-2006 10:10 AM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by kjsimons, posted 05-31-2006 11:56 AM Larni has replied
 Message 273 by ohnhai, posted 05-31-2006 8:30 PM Larni has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 243 of 302 (316547)
05-31-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by riVeRraT
05-31-2006 9:57 AM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
Woah there! just spotted this:
RRat writes:
It sprang into someones mind, but I agree, not everyones mind, is a possibility, hence the default position of atheism or "true atheist".
Does this not answer to OP?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2006 9:57 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2006 3:44 PM Larni has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 244 of 302 (316557)
05-31-2006 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by riVeRraT
05-30-2006 11:05 PM


Re: Dogma in college
No, that is not clear at all. That is not my experiance at all either.
In a secular college, unless it is a philosphy class, or a comparison religion class, God is not generally mentioned one way or another.
An occational teacher might or might not mention god one way or another, but you won't find any reference to god on the syllabus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2006 11:05 PM riVeRraT has not replied

kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 245 of 302 (316559)
05-31-2006 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Larni
05-31-2006 10:54 AM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
Is this not the position of the agnostic?
No, agnostics don't take a stand either way, neither choosing to believe or disbelieve in god(s).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Larni, posted 05-31-2006 10:54 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Larni, posted 06-01-2006 8:01 AM kjsimons has not replied

alacrity fitzhugh
Member (Idle past 4288 days)
Posts: 194
Joined: 02-10-2004


Message 246 of 302 (316577)
05-31-2006 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by riVeRraT
05-31-2006 9:27 AM


still doing ad hominem not subject
Around here we do not attack the person (which you seem to be doing a lot of) we attack the subject, it's part of the forum rules. It would serve us all a little better if you would keep your emotions out of it.
I said
How was colledge I never went.
You said
Seems that way.
Either way, you are new here, and semantics are not welcome, at
l;east not with me. Your best bet at an intelligent conversation with
me will be honesty, other wise it will cease, I don't have time for
it.
Then you said
Around here we do not attack the person (which you
seem to be doing a lot of) we attack the subject
Thats called pot calling the kettle black. You seem to do this a lot
when things dont go your way!
The subjectis is why dont athiest believe. Not riverrat wants me to be
indoctrinated into his cult. Would you mind sticking to the subject at
hand or give up preaching.
Oh one more thing I registered and posted months before you so no Im
not new.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2006 9:27 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 247 of 302 (316598)
05-31-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by riVeRraT
05-30-2006 11:05 PM


Re: Dogma in college
riVeRraT writes:
Isn't it plainly clear that in a secular college you will learn about all the reasons why God doesn't exist, and in a Christian one, you will learn the opposite?
If that were true, a secular college would never get to teaching the important stuff. They'd only be busy telling their students the reasons why God doesn't exist, then the reasons why Loki doesn't exist, then Shiva, then Allah, then... You get the picture?
Fortunately, that's not the case. What really happens in a secular college is that they teach their students the current - or perhaps a slightly outdated - state of knowledge that comes out of scientific research.
Why is the Christian one dogma?
Because it hasn't changed in two millenia, not even in the face of what people have found out about the world in the same period.
The secular world view, insofar as it's informed by science, is subject to that same science's capability of self-correction. This mechanism of self-correction is a guarantee that science will not be stifled by dogma. The moment science adopts a dogmatic view of things, it stops being science.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2006 11:05 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Omnivorous, posted 05-31-2006 3:24 PM Parasomnium has replied
 Message 256 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2006 3:33 PM Parasomnium has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 248 of 302 (316609)
05-31-2006 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by ohnhai
05-31-2006 10:10 AM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
I Freely admit that my belief in the non-existence of the God/s could be wrong. As I can’t prove 100% their lack of existence it would be dishonest of me to say other wise. Though I firmly and resolutely BELIVE that the God/s do NOT exist, IF I was to come across some evidence that was UNDENIABLE, that proved the existence of the God/s then I would have to re-adjust my world view accordingly.
This is not dogma?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by ohnhai, posted 05-31-2006 10:10 AM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by ohnhai, posted 05-31-2006 8:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 249 of 302 (316610)
05-31-2006 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by PaulK
05-31-2006 10:19 AM


Re: On 'isms' and redness
You will note that it doesn't say anything about the truth of the dogma.
truth of the dogma?
What the fuck does that mean?
I think it says exactly what it says.
Also I asked you to answer my question without non-sequiturs and you have not done so.
I answered your question the best I could, maybe your not asking right?
Now as to whether your question as to whether the definition fits atheism or not, firstly I will point out that this discussion is using a wide definition of atheism which includes simply not taking a stance on whether a God exists or not. This clearly does not fit. Even if we take a narrower definition which requires taking the idea that God does not exist I would have to question whether it would fit - where is the "authority" that makes it "authoritative".
I have no idea what this means, does anyone else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by PaulK, posted 05-31-2006 10:19 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Parasomnium, posted 05-31-2006 3:37 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 282 by PaulK, posted 06-01-2006 2:57 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 250 of 302 (316614)
05-31-2006 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Larni
05-31-2006 10:37 AM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
But to have a belief about an external consciousness you need a Theory of Mind. At 1.5 years you did not have this.
So you've never seen a baby get scared about something that wasn't himself?
This would conflict with what I hear from other xians.
Then don't believe what I say, or anyone else. Read the bible on it, and then ask God yourself. To me it's obvious where children get to go, they are innocent.
Pretty unfair if you lived in a time/location that never is exposed to xian doctorine don't you think?
Not really. If there is a God, then there is a time and a place for each one of his strategies. There was a time when Christ's views did not exist for us.
I can't effectively judge that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Larni, posted 05-31-2006 10:37 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by nator, posted 05-31-2006 9:33 PM riVeRraT has replied
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 251 of 302 (316618)
05-31-2006 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Parasomnium
05-31-2006 2:18 PM


Re: Dogma in college
In my four years of year-round undergrad school, the only course in which the existence or nonexistence of God was discussed was "Early Modern Philosphers," where we examined the proofs of Descartes and others.
I know some of my fellow students were devout Christians, but no one seemed disturbed by leaving God in Heaven during classroom instruction. None of my professors or instructors ever attempted to promote an atheistic stance during those years.
The notion that colleges militate against religion is just flat-out silly. Most profs already struggle--largely due to unprepared students--to cover their subject matter without introducing extraneous material.
Perhaps more high school grads would be prepared if their school boards spent less time worrying about religion and sex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Parasomnium, posted 05-31-2006 2:18 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Parasomnium, posted 05-31-2006 3:32 PM Omnivorous has replied
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Whirlwind
Inactive Member


Message 252 of 302 (316619)
05-31-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
05-23-2006 7:37 PM


riVeRraT writes:
Why should they believe? Well the bible clearly states, that it is faith that gets you your evidence.
Millhouse writes:
"If it's in a book, it's gotta be true!"
Sorry, but saying "the bible exists" is not a good arguement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 05-23-2006 7:37 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 253 of 302 (316622)
05-31-2006 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Larni
05-31-2006 10:39 AM


most likely with some veins of truth,
My humble suggestion,,stick to the red letters (the ones Jesus spoke), if they start to ring true with you, then I think it's a good start.
To me, life is covered up with lies. It seems to be a "game" that God has put us through to try and figure them out. Or maybe it's just a learning experience, so we can take it to the next level. But clearly there are things that are wrong here on earth.
I feel I have experienced a whole lot of truth and wisdom from the Holy Spirit, yet my worldly views and ignorant ways keep getting in the way. I guess that is what is meant by "faith".
To me it's not easy learning about God's ways, and diminishing my own, but everything that is worth while in life has a period of learning to go through.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Larni, posted 05-31-2006 10:39 AM Larni has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 254 of 302 (316623)
05-31-2006 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Whirlwind
05-31-2006 3:25 PM


If your going to exert something, you have to back it up with a reason.
The bible exists, that is a fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Whirlwind, posted 05-31-2006 3:25 PM Whirlwind has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 255 of 302 (316626)
05-31-2006 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Omnivorous
05-31-2006 3:24 PM


Re: Dogma in college
Omni, I am slightly puzzled why you're saying this to me. I think I'll take it as a sign of agreement, but please let me know if I misunderstand you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Omnivorous, posted 05-31-2006 3:24 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Omnivorous, posted 05-31-2006 4:15 PM Parasomnium has replied

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