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Author Topic:   I met God
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 108 (376482)
01-12-2007 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Kader
01-12-2007 10:19 AM


Re: Love/God
Now please If you say that God is Jesus (and vice-versa) it is not silly to say that 1 billion muslim will strongly disagree with you.
But I do not say that GOD is Jesus but rather that Jesus is GOD. And yes, Muslims and Jews will disagree with that. But that has nothing to do with the God of Judaism, Islam and Christianity all being the God of Abraham.
Im not saying that christianity is God, I am saying that to go to heaven you have to follow a set of rules, and theses rules contradict themselves from a religion to another.
Yes, you are saying that. I happen to believe that is wrong and guess what, many other Christians would agree with me. The Bible agrees with me. I referred you once before to the thread Message 1. Have you read that yet?
Map vs territory is your belief.
No. Map versus Territory is a basic part of learning semantics and critical thinking. It is not a belief but a necessary tool if you ever want to learn to think critically. For a short but very important book on the subject, read Language in Thought and Action by SI Hayakawa, or the General Principles of semantics laid down by Alfred Korzybski.
Both of those works should be required reading for kids in about the 9th. Grade.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 10:19 AM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 11:02 AM jar has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 62 of 108 (376484)
01-12-2007 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
01-12-2007 10:42 AM


Re: Love/God
Alright Jar
No. Map versus Territory is a basic part of learning semantics and critical thinking.
Map vs Territory in religious belief IS NOT critical thinking.
Does every atheist in the world are unable to have any sense of critical thinking ?
I happen to believe that is wrong
Any facts at all ?
Christianity based itself on the bible Islam of the Qu'ran... What you are syaing implies that both Qu'ran and the Bible are wrong and right at the same time.
It suits you to think the great flood didn't happen, and it suits you to believe that jesus existed. You pick and choose what you want to be true. So please believing I am wrong does not make it so. (vice versa of course)
But to get back on topic, Why does God pick and choose only believers to talk to them.
Do I have to be born and indoctrined in a religious belief for God to speak to me ?
Edited by Kader, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 01-12-2007 10:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 01-12-2007 11:33 AM Kader has replied
 Message 67 by jar, posted 01-12-2007 11:38 AM Kader has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 108 (376488)
01-12-2007 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Kader
01-12-2007 10:01 AM


Re: No better No worse
kader writes:
I consider myself having a pretty open mind. I crave knowledge about God, I want him to talk to me or to show me his existance. But I'm not getting any insight, and I don't want to spend anymore time studying any scripture. I want him to speak to me like he speaks to George Bush. And I will convert.
Allow me to speculate, here. God does not speak to everyone the same way. I have no idea if George Bush hears God or if he only thinks he hears God. I do not believe that God approves of a war primarily to secure Western Capitalist interests.
Kader,speaking to Jar writes:
I wish everyone would hold the same kind of belief, but reality is otherwise..sadly. Im not saying that christianity is God, I am saying that to go to heaven you have to follow a set of rules, and these rules contradict themselves from a religion to another.
Many Christians believe that humans are incapable of following the rules anyway and that only through faith in Christ (the character of God) can we make it to heaven. I happen to believe that its a matter of trust but also a matter of doing the best that we possibly can.
You say that you crave God and that you are curious about the end times? Well...if this is in any way true, common sense to me dictates that only after the sum of humanity has attempted to do the best that we can within the context of our inclinations and awareness, then and only then would God intervene in the affairs of humanity.
In the meantime, we would do well to attempt to get along with our fellow humans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 10:01 AM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 11:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 64 of 108 (376494)
01-12-2007 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Kader
01-12-2007 11:02 AM


Re: Love/God
Kader writes:
Does every atheist in the world are unable to have any sense of critical thinking ?
Atheists explore the Territory without a Map.
Why does God pick and choose only believers to talk to them.
God is not the auto club - He doesn't give out Maps. You can choose to use the Map your parents gave you or you can go out and find whatever Map you like.
The Map won't "speak" to you unless you use it.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 11:02 AM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 11:52 AM ringo has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 65 of 108 (376495)
01-12-2007 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Kader
01-12-2007 10:41 AM


kader writes:
I don't think any atheist here would reject a sign from God. Actually it is quite the contrary, there is atheist because of the LACK of signs from God.
My apologies in advance for a (maybe a bad) parable. Most Atheist are like the young virgin that refuses to enter into a sexual relationship before marriage out of respect for their future mate who at the time do not know who that may be.
The same is true of the atheist or agnostic (a cowardly atheist) is that they don't just want to jump into bed with some attractive comfortable religion out of respect of the true God which the do not know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 10:41 AM Kader has not replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 66 of 108 (376497)
01-12-2007 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
01-12-2007 11:22 AM


Re: No better No worse
I have no idea if George Bush hears God or if he only thinks he hears God. I do not believe that God approves of a war primarily to secure Western Capitalist interests.
Either God really is talking to Bush, wich invalidate whatever preconcieved idea you might have of what would God say to Goerge Bush, or he might be lying/deluded.
I chose to believe he is lying/deluded.
You say that you crave God
Everyone craves knowledge about God. Me too. Everyone would like to know if God exist (including many believers)
You say that you crave God and that you are curious about the end times?
I do not crave God, I crave knowledge about God.
And the end of time was but one question (on a list of thousands of question) I would like to have an answer for. Some are more personal some are very general.
In the meantime, we would do well to attempt to get along with our fellow humans.
Wich is impossible today. But it something nice to hope for

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 01-12-2007 11:22 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 108 (376498)
01-12-2007 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Kader
01-12-2007 11:02 AM


Re: Love/God
Map vs Territory in religious belief IS NOT critical thinking.
Of course it is. Trying to keep this somewhat on topic, let me see if I can explain.
If GOD the creator of all, seen and unseen exists, then that is a reality, a Territory. It happens to be a part of reality which we cannot test by definition, since it is Supernatural. That does not mean GOD does not exist, only that at the present time we have no way to test such a reality.
GOD though, if GOD exists, is GOD. GOD is not something we can create, but rather whatever that actuality happens to be.
Religions on the other hand are a creation of man. We create religions. We write the books, the manuals.
They are attempts to portray the reality GOD, but they are human constructs, Maps. They are NOT GOD.
Does every atheist in the world are unable to have any sense of critical thinking ?
Huh?
Any facts at all ?
Huh? I said it was my belief. I said no more than that it was a belief.
Christianity based itself on the bible Islam of the Qu'ran... What you are syaing implies that both Qu'ran and the Bible are wrong and right at the same time.
Not sure I understand what you are asking, but if it is "Do I believe that both the Qur'an and Bible are right", then sure. Both have areas that are likely right, areas where they are wrong. On the issue of whether Jesus is actually divine or just a prophet, neither of us will know for sure while we live.
It suits you to think the great flood didn't happen, and it suits you to believe that jesus existed. You pick and choose what you want to be true. So please believing I am wrong does not make it so. (vice versa of course)
Not quite right. I know that the flood did not happen. All of the evidence shows that there has not been a world-wide flood in at the least, the last 600,000 years. I have no choice in what to believe there, the record is clear. I do not get to pick there, the FACT is that the flood did not happen as described in the Bible.
The same holds true for other issues, the Exodus never happened as described, the Conquest of Canaan never happened as described, the Earth is not just 6000 years old and there was no special creation as described in Genesis.
I don't have a choice in what to believe on those matters. The evidence is overwhelming that they simply didn't happen.
Jesus existence and divinity are another matter. Whether Jesus existed or not is an open question. But as I have said many times (even to you) if we found proof positive that Jesus lived, if we found his expense account that listed every stop, every person he met with, all the bills for the great fish fry, it would still not address the issue of his divinity. I freely admit that I only believe in Jesus' divinity and that I could be wrong.
But to get back on topic, Why does God pick and choose only believers to talk to them.
Do I have to be born and indoctrined in a religious belief for God to speak to me ?
I don't know. I am quite sure that you do not have to be Born Again or any such nonsense since GOD speaks to Jews and Christians and Hindus and Muslims and Wiccans and Taoists and Satanists and Buddhists.
As I pointed out in Message 21, it could just be a hearing problem. It could be selective hearing. It could be that background noise drowns Her out.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 11:02 AM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 12:07 PM jar has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 68 of 108 (376501)
01-12-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by ringo
01-12-2007 11:33 AM


Re: Love/God
Atheists explore the Territory without a Map.
Empty assertion ?
Many atheist were first and foremost theist.
He doesn't give out Maps
Quite the contrary it is God that gave the maps to men many years ago.
So yes God GAVE out maps. And If I follow you thoughs on this, God also gave us a map we call Greek mythology. Is greek mythology a map ?
If not why ?
And if all maps aren't equal WHO is to judge wich maps is THE CLOSEST to the truth ?
It is a very liberal belief, and Im all for it. But I do not believe it. There is nothing that would compell me to believe that God talked to people and couldn't get the message through. Mulsims christians buddhists scientologists.... there is no reason to believe that God was so incompetant as to get his message to be distorted like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 01-12-2007 11:33 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 01-12-2007 12:06 PM Kader has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 108 (376502)
01-12-2007 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Kader
01-12-2007 11:52 AM


Re: Love/God
Kader writes:
Many atheist were first and foremost theist.
They threw the Maps away.
... it is God that gave the maps to men many years ago.
No. The Maps are all man-made. Some mapmakers claim that God "guided their hand".
If I follow you thoughs on this, God also gave us a map we call Greek mythology. Is greek mythology a map ?
Greek mythology is a Map, but it was not given out by God. It was made by Greeks.
And if all maps aren't equal WHO is to judge wich maps is THE CLOSEST to the truth ?
We all are. We all have to compare the Map to the Territory on our journey through life.
If a Map claims that the Territory will self-destruct in 1914 and it doesn't, it's not very accurate.
There is nothing that would compell me to believe that God talked to people and couldn't get the message through.
**shrug** Nobody's trying to "compell" you.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 11:52 AM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 12:18 PM ringo has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 70 of 108 (376503)
01-12-2007 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
01-12-2007 11:38 AM


Re: Love/God
Jar I'll I wouldgladly explore with you in deepth the basis of your belief, on another topic perhaps (Because although your way of thiking is extremly refreshing, I still think your picking what you would like to believe.)
I don't know. I am quite sure that you do not have to be Born Again or any such nonsense since GOD speaks to Jews and Christians and Hindus and Muslims and Wiccans and Taoists and Satanists and Buddhists.
If we accept that God does speak to people :
- God would tell some muslim to kill heathens
- God would tell some christian to be hateful toward gay people
- God would tell Goerge W.Bush to attack Iraq
Unless we only accept a preconcieved idea of what exactly would God say.
How do you tell if someone really heard God's voice or not ?
Is it based on what the message is ?
Is it based on the person background ?
As I pointed out in Re: Just answers? Or Questions? (Message 21), it could just be a hearing problem. It could be selective hearing. It could be that background noise drowns Her out.
So to hear God there is some things to fulfill some special abilities or conviction you must have ?
Why would I have some background noise while you don't (or someone who speak with god doesn't)
Hence my question
Are thoses people special

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 01-12-2007 11:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 01-12-2007 12:15 PM Kader has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 108 (376504)
01-12-2007 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Kader
01-12-2007 12:07 PM


on voices
How do you tell if someone really heard God's voice or not ?
Once more.
We can't.
I have told you that I believe I talk with GOD. I have also told you that I might be wrong.
So to hear God there is some things to fulfill some special abilities or conviction you must have ?
Once more.
I don't know.
For example, your posts indicate that you have not heard (or read and comprehended) anything I have said or Ringo has said. Based on that I have no problem believing that you also have not heard anything GOD would say to you.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 12:07 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 12:35 PM jar has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 72 of 108 (376505)
01-12-2007 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
01-12-2007 12:06 PM


Re: Love/God
No. The Maps are all man-made. Some mapmakers claim that God "guided their hand".
Does God speak to people today ?
Does he has conversation with some people like some claims ?
Most knowledge of our world (physical) that is described in thoses maps(pick wich one you like), have been scientifically refuted.
So why would you trust that these map might be correct on the spiritual level ? Is there any indication that these map may be correct ? Is there any indication that christianity or islam is even a map ?
....
Most importantly, if you believe the spiritual side of thoses maps.
Why doesn God keep on playing with us.
God gives no factual evidence of its existance, yet to his believers he gives all the evidence they need. Why ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 01-12-2007 12:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 01-12-2007 12:32 PM Kader has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 73 of 108 (376510)
01-12-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Kader
01-12-2007 12:18 PM


Re: Love/God
Kader writes:
Most knowledge of our world (physical) that is described in thoses maps(pick wich one you like), have been scientifically refuted.
If you expect to find a big red line between countries, you will be disappointed. If you expect the capital of your country to be shaped like a star, you will be disappointed. That doesn't mean the Map has been "refuted". It means you don't know how to read a Map.
So why would you trust that these map might be correct on the spiritual level ?
You compare it to the spiritual Territory. If it doesn't match the Territory, you try a different Map, or you become Magellan.
God gives no factual evidence of its existance, yet to his believers he gives all the evidence they need. Why ?
You're illustrating that very well.
There can not be any communication unless the receiver is turned on. You have to pay attention.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 12:18 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Kader, posted 01-12-2007 12:40 PM ringo has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 74 of 108 (376513)
01-12-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
01-12-2007 12:15 PM


Re: on voices
Alright Jar.
All you seem to be saying is nobody can know.
YES I agree with it!
But what do you do when people CLAIM that God spoke to them. And BASED on thoses claims act accordingly ?
God spoke to Al'Qaida
God spoke to Bush
God is creating a situation that promotes war and hate.
I do not believe God spoke to any of thoses parties, I do not believe that it is God that speaks to you, because there is no way you can prove (not even to yourself) that it is God.
Okay well cased close for you Jar, all that you know is you don't know nothing (same as me)
Now for the people who claim that God spoke to them, and are CERTAIN of the validity of the message and from who it is (God) Why can't you prove it to me ?
Or why doesn't God speaks to me ?
ps : I've heard Jar (and ringo's ?) Answer to my questions.
I'm the problem, I do not listen properly or my current condition makes me unnable to hear him.
Alright anyone else have any other suggestion as to why me and billions of people cannot hear God (only a select few seems to have that provilege, hence why I want to know if you are special)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 01-12-2007 12:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 01-12-2007 12:43 PM Kader has replied
 Message 77 by jar, posted 01-12-2007 12:45 PM Kader has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 75 of 108 (376516)
01-12-2007 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
01-12-2007 12:32 PM


Re: Love/God
Ringo
Does God speaks to you (clearly) ?
If he does would you care to give some detail..
Is it a voice in your head
A voice that comes from somewhere (not in your head)
through an evenment
through prayer
Is there also visual
etc
Can you ask him any question ?
You know where im going to

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 01-12-2007 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 01-12-2007 12:50 PM Kader has not replied

  
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