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Author Topic:   How do Christians deal with the violence in the Bible?
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 1 of 221 (227179)
07-28-2005 7:10 PM


Specifically, how do Christians feel about violence supposedly committed directly by or at the command of God?
Examples would be:
quote:
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven
God destroys entire cities and all of their inhabitants for sexual immorality.
quote:
Genesis 19:8
Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Lot offers up his two virgin daughters for the angels to do with them as they would like.
quote:
Exodus 11:5
And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
God kills all of the firstborn of Egypt, after purposefully "hardening the heart" of Pharaoh - He supposedly gave Himself the exuse He used to kill children.
quote:
Exodus 32:27-28
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
God orders the slaughter of 3000 men, women, and children because they worshipped an idol.
quote:
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Apparently God created bad people for the express reason of being able to punish them for it by sending them to Hell.
How do Christians, or even non-Christians feel about these things? There are more, and according to the Gospels, Jesus Himself wasn't much better (He didn't actually DO any killing or slaughter, He just threatened and warned of God's impending wrath).
Were these actions moral? Does God's Will justify an act otherwise considered reprehensible, like the murder of children? Are these things even remotely compatable with the God who tells commands His followers to "Love thy neighbor as you love yourself?" What do various modern denominations believe about all of the violence perpetrated in God's name?
Obviously, I reccomend this be put in the Faith and Belief forum. I'd also like us to try to remember that not all Christians are going to support or even believe in these actions, so let's try to avoid simple Christian-bashing and stick to the question of whether God's Will could morally justify an otherwise horrible act.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 11:01 AM Rahvin has replied
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2005 11:10 AM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 14 by GDR, posted 07-30-2005 12:23 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 23 by jar, posted 07-30-2005 3:07 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 161 by iano, posted 08-04-2005 4:31 PM Rahvin has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 221 (227715)
07-30-2005 10:18 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3 of 221 (227738)
07-30-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
07-28-2005 7:10 PM


Specifically, how do Christians feel about violence supposedly committed directly by or at the command of God?
Examples would be:
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven
This is God's judgment against sin and given as a warning to all that this is how His justice works in this universe.
God destroys entire cities and all of their inhabitants for sexual immorality.
Absolutely. And He still does and still will, though He always gives ample time for repentance. Hundreds of years. The Bible was given to be a warning.
Genesis 19:8
Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Lot offers up his two virgin daughters for the angels to do with them as they would like.
Hardly. He offers his virgin daughters as SUBSTITUTES for the angels, who the Sodomites wanted instead. What do I think of it? I think they lived in rough times, the very primitive culture of the Middle East of the time. There are many such examples of this, such as the revenge killing by the sons of Jacob of the whole family of Shechem for his rape of Dinah, even though he loved her and wanted to marry her according to all the rules. This was before God gave the Law to Moses, which put restrictions on such disproportionate vigilante justice. Lot was protecting his angelic guests, messengers from God, from an offense he regarded as worse than the rape of his daughters. Nothing pretty about any of it.
quote:
Exodus 11:5
And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
God kills all of the firstborn of Egypt, after purposefully "hardening the heart" of Pharaoh - He supposedly gave Himself the exuse He used to kill children.
Yes, there's a ton of theology about God's justice in this, like it or not. Israel was God's own "firstborn" and He was avenging the slavery of His firstborn against Pharoah in terms the people could understand.
Exodus 32:27-28
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
God orders the slaughter of 3000 men, women, and children because they worshipped an idol.
You misrepresent the text. They killed only men, as you just quoted. Again God's judgments being illustrated. These were His own people who were committing adultery against Him. Idolatry is also called adultery in the Bible.
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Apparently God created bad people for the express reason of being able to punish them for it by sending them to Hell.
Sad but true.
How do Christians, or even non-Christians feel about these things? There are more, and according to the Gospels, Jesus Himself wasn't much better (He didn't actually DO any killing or slaughter, He just threatened and warned of God's impending wrath).
Jesus is God.
Obviously you don't like to see justice done against sin.
Were these actions moral? Does God's Will justify an act otherwise considered reprehensible, like the murder of children? Are these things even remotely compatable with the God who tells commands His followers to "Love thy neighbor as you love yourself?" What do various modern denominations believe about all of the violence perpetrated in God's name?
These are GOD's own doings, never commanded of His followers, as we are to be "meek" and "peacemakers," following Jesus who died for sinners. What you are leaving out is that God sent His Son to suffer these very judgments in our place, yes, God the Son taking the punishments, the just punishments of our sin, into His own body so that those who believe in Him might escape them.
Obviously, I reccomend this be put in the Faith and Belief forum. I'd also like us to try to remember that not all Christians are going to support or even believe in these actions, so let's try to avoid simple Christian-bashing and stick to the question of whether God's Will could morally justify an otherwise horrible act.
It is important to distinguish between acts of God which go on all the time, and what Christians are commanded to do, which is to be bringers of God's mercy, the antidote to His justice, bring the gospel to sinners so that they may ESCAPE these judgments. Christians who denounce God's justice have a pretty senseless gospel of salvation from God's justice to offer people.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-30-2005 11:02 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rahvin, posted 07-28-2005 7:10 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Rahvin, posted 07-30-2005 1:41 PM Faith has replied
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 07-31-2005 1:24 AM Faith has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 4 of 221 (227743)
07-30-2005 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
07-28-2005 7:10 PM


How do they deal with it?
As you can see by just reading Faith's posts, they just ignore it.

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 Message 1 by Rahvin, posted 07-28-2005 7:10 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 5 of 221 (227746)
07-30-2005 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
07-30-2005 11:10 AM


Re: How do they deal with it?
Hardly ignored it Mr. Frog. Showed that it is God's justice and what we need salvation from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2005 11:10 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2005 11:17 AM Faith has replied
 Message 7 by CK, posted 07-30-2005 11:18 AM Faith has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 221 (227749)
07-30-2005 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
07-30-2005 11:13 AM


Re: How do they deal with it?
Blaming the victims doesn't really strike me as a healthy or honest way to deal with things. You've simply handwaved the violence, and the commands to violence, by implying that they no longer apply without actually developing any scriptural basis to support that.
And a number of Christian leaders completely disagree with you. They're absolutely certain that the conditions of America today so closely match the situation of ancient Israel that those commands are still very much in force.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 11:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 11:25 AM crashfrog has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 7 of 221 (227751)
07-30-2005 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
07-30-2005 11:13 AM


Re: How do they deal with it?
No no - Faith doesn't ignore - she believes in Genocide
quote:
quote: You are excusing genocide. You keep calling it "justice". Make no mistake, Faith, you are the one who is confused. There can never be any justification for genocide. Never.
Sometimes there is. God says so. --http://EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity -->EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity
Maybe the nazis were just carrying out god's work,eh?

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 Message 5 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 11:13 AM Faith has not replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 8 of 221 (227754)
07-30-2005 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
07-30-2005 11:17 AM


Re: How do they deal with it?
Excuse me but what "victims" are being blamed here? You simply refuse to accept God's righteous judgements on the GUILTY. We're ALL guilty, by the way, not an innocent victim among us with respect to God's law against sinners.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2005 11:17 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by dsv, posted 07-30-2005 11:32 AM Faith has replied
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2005 1:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 9 of 221 (227757)
07-30-2005 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
07-30-2005 11:25 AM


Re: How do they deal with it?
We're ALL guilty, by the way, not an innocent victim among us with respect to God's law against sinners.
Then why aren't we seeing the same actions as per how the sinners were dealt with in Biblical times?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 11:25 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 10 of 221 (227762)
07-30-2005 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by dsv
07-30-2005 11:32 AM


Re: How do they deal with it?
1) God's judgments go on every day, but their causes are usually not obvious.
{EDIT: 1a) There is always a time lag between sin and punishment, cause and effect, which in the case of the accumulation of a whole nation's sins, for instance, may be hundreds of years.
2) The judgments given in the Bible are more than anything else a warning of the ultimate Judgment to come.
3) God no longer uses His people as instruments of His justice as He did in the time of Israelites. Now His people are to spread the word of salvation FROM His judgments.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-30-2005 11:38 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-30-2005 11:41 AM

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Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by CK, posted 07-30-2005 11:52 AM Faith has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 11 of 221 (227766)
07-30-2005 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
07-30-2005 11:37 AM


Re: How do they deal with it?
quote:
{EDIT: 1a) There is always a time lag between sin and punishment, cause and effect
What's the time lag between the sins of a stillborn child and it's punishment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 11:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 12:14 PM CK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 12 of 221 (227775)
07-30-2005 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by CK
07-30-2005 11:52 AM


Re: How do they deal with it?
Besides committing our own sins we also inherit sin. The consequences are very sad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by CK, posted 07-30-2005 11:52 AM CK has replied

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CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 13 of 221 (227776)
07-30-2005 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
07-30-2005 12:14 PM


Measuring the effect of knocking one off on the world
So if I masterbate does this add to the level of sin in the world?
So all the people in the world didn't masterbate - the Average level of sin would fall?
How do we measure this?
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 30-Jul-2005 12:16 PM
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 30-Jul-2005 12:21 PM

Literalistic young earth creationism is an insult to God, suggesting that he would arbitrarily and capriciously break his own exquisite laws whenever it suited him. Worse, the evidence for the fact of evolution is so knockdown overwhelming that we can reconcile it with young earth creationism only by assuming that God deliberately planted false evidence, in the rocks and in the genetic molecules, to trick us. Could a cruder blasphemy be imagined?
Bishop of Oxford

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 12:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 14 of 221 (227780)
07-30-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
07-28-2005 7:10 PM


Rahvin writes:
Specifically, how do Christians feel about violence supposedly committed directly by or at the command of God?
My own belief is this. God has given us free will as told metaphorically in Genesis when we ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
As individuals and as nations we make choices. When we live our lives according to God's will for us things go relatively well until we are affected by others who are not living out that basic dictum. I'm just suggesting that it is natural law that causes people and nations to suffer. The further away they move from God's command to love and serve others the more we suffer as a nation or as an individual.
God's will is that we should love him by truly loving all that is good and hating evil, and that we love our neighbour. I suggest that we are all born with the seed of that in our hearts but that we are also born with the ability to reject love and embrace self. None of us accept it perfectly but I suppose it is a matter of degree. A few seem to go completely the other way and love evil.

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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 15 of 221 (227787)
07-30-2005 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by GDR
07-30-2005 12:23 PM


GDR
My own belief is this. God has given us free will as told metaphorically in Genesis when we ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
Exodus 11:5
And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts
So what freewill did the firstborns have in this passage?

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 Message 14 by GDR, posted 07-30-2005 12:23 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by GDR, posted 07-30-2005 12:44 PM sidelined has replied

  
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