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Author Topic:   A statement of my disbeliefs
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 1 of 87 (202141)
04-25-2005 9:01 AM


I thought that it may be interesting for those who don't believe in the christian god to outline what their views are on the existance of God or Gods.
ME: The more I experience and the more I read on those forums and other places, the more I am convinced that the God of the christians and the muslims is a deadend - a construction of the human mind. That does not mean that I have entirely discounted the idea of "God" but rather I have found those particular franchises to be wanting.
It could be that I discover God in the Torah or some other place, who knows?
So basically - God could exist but I currently don't see anything to convince me at present.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 04-25-2005 10:39 AM CK has not replied
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 Message 6 by coffee_addict, posted 04-25-2005 12:19 PM CK has not replied
 Message 7 by mick, posted 04-25-2005 12:46 PM CK has not replied
 Message 8 by Primordial Egg, posted 04-25-2005 1:20 PM CK has not replied
 Message 9 by riVeRraT, posted 04-25-2005 2:32 PM CK has replied
 Message 10 by jar, posted 04-25-2005 3:07 PM CK has not replied
 Message 12 by Tusko, posted 04-25-2005 4:01 PM CK has not replied
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 Message 19 by Ben!, posted 04-25-2005 8:43 PM CK has not replied
 Message 29 by Checkmate, posted 04-27-2005 12:32 PM CK has replied
 Message 37 by ProfessorR, posted 05-10-2005 3:35 PM CK has replied
 Message 41 by Dead Parrot, posted 05-10-2005 10:29 PM CK has not replied
 Message 48 by purpledawn, posted 05-25-2005 2:23 PM CK has not replied
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 87 (202172)
04-25-2005 10:18 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 3 of 87 (202177)
04-25-2005 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
04-25-2005 9:01 AM


quote:
So basically - God could exist but I currently don't see anything to convince me at present.
That sums up my view as well.
Additionally, I also consider it possible that even if God exists, we have no reason to believe that we could understand of comprehend this entity at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 04-25-2005 9:01 AM CK has not replied

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 4 of 87 (202182)
04-25-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by nator
04-25-2005 10:39 AM


Additionally, I also consider it possible that even if God exists, we have no reason to believe that we could understand of comprehend this entity at all.
I only differ in that as some part of my inner makeup I am utterly convinced there is a God, probably because I believe there's a higher reason for existence. It feels to me like there must be more than just you're born and then you die.
Someone with these kinds of inner feelings might likely be expected to affiliate with some religion or another, but I am not a member of any organized religion - I'm a Unitarian! (I know I've used that line before, but I like it.)
Even for a Unitarian my views are somewhat "out there", but since the local Unitarian churches have followed along with the national merging with the Universalists there is no longer much mention of spirtual issues during services, and I stopped attending long ago. The last service I attended was about keeping the right-wing hawks from nuking the pregnant and underpaid female handicapped whales. Reverend Dorothy Kimble, if you're out there, we need you back!
Giving the wide variety of religions on the planet, each with a conservative faction insisting that theirs is the one, right and true religion, it seems unlikely that any of them are privy to information about the true nature of God, especially those whose views are still anchored in pre-scientific beliefs.
I guess my views aren't entirely congruent with Krull and Schraf. Since I don't believe we know anything about God, I couldn't say whether we could comprehend him or not.
--Percy

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 5 of 87 (202184)
04-25-2005 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
04-25-2005 9:01 AM


See, I'm pretty certain there is no god. Largely as a subset of being pretty certain that all that there is in the world is naturalistic. Of course, I'm also pretty certain that I can't be truly certain about anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 04-25-2005 9:01 AM CK has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 6 of 87 (202193)
04-25-2005 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
04-25-2005 9:01 AM


I don't care if there is a god or not. If I ever take over the world (I'm serious) I'm going to make sure the very concept will be forgotten by everyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 04-25-2005 9:01 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 7 of 87 (202205)
04-25-2005 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
04-25-2005 9:01 AM


I have to align myself with the atheists on this one.
I see no reason to believe in any God, and therefore I don't.
It is not impossible that I might one day find God in the Torah, like you. But I can only imagine this would be due to some catastrophe in my life that damaged my reason (ie. sudden death of everybody I know, brain damage, near death experience, or what have you).
added in edit: What I am trying to say is that I feel a belief in God would only result from some sort of psychological need to believe. I think deep rooted pscyhological needs underly many people's belief in religion. For some people it might be a need to believe we are not in a meaningless world, not alone. For others it might be a need to belong to a community (because there are real psychological benefits to belonging to a small cliquey church). For others it might be the glamour of Church traditions - the candles, robes and secret customs that outsiders can't understand. But at the moment I just don't have any of those psychological needs. Perhaps I fulfil them in a different way. I get the psychological crutch of a basically existentialist view of life, and a sense of community from my friends, family, science (and who knows, maybe even internet talkboards?)
This message has been edited by mick, 04-25-2005 11:58 AM

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 Message 1 by CK, posted 04-25-2005 9:01 AM CK has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 87 (202218)
04-25-2005 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
04-25-2005 9:01 AM


big if
Yeah to what Mr Jack said, pretty much verbatim. I don't believe in any deities as they've been defined for me, they smack to me of human invention.
Although, I am starting to come round to the idea that it may be far more probable that this Universe was created by something else, rather than arose naturally, just by a simple probability argument.
If:
- multiple universes exist
- it is possible (in principle) to create universes in a laboratory
I would find it difficult to believe that somewhere in the multiverse, there wouldn't be beings who would create these test tube Universes which would look exactly like the one we inhabit. Billions of them, in fact. I would tentatively argue that it is far more probable that we're living in one of these artificially created universes than a "naturally" created one.
This does beg a few questions - where did these beings originally come from? Was there a "natural" beginning to the multiverse and what caused this? Could these beings be said to be effectively omni etc etc in our universe? I think these beings, if they exist, would come close to matching some description of gods.
Ultimately this solves nothing, as the beings which created this universe would use the same logic to deduce that they (probably) were artificially created themselves.
PE
This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 04-25-2005 12:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 04-25-2005 9:01 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 9 of 87 (202249)
04-25-2005 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
04-25-2005 9:01 AM


One and the same
I couldn't find God anywhere I looked either, until I searched myself.
It troubles me that you are looking for God on these forums, and "other places". I wish I had something of some significance to say to you, for once.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 04-25-2005 9:01 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by CK, posted 04-25-2005 3:48 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 87 (202260)
04-25-2005 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
04-25-2005 9:01 AM


What I do not believe.
I do not believe
  • that the GOD who created this Universe would get upset because someone disrespected him.
  • that the GOD who created this universe cares or even considers whether or not somone believes in Him.
  • that GOD would create only a narrow way to reach Him.
  • that GOD cannot and did not reach out to people at many times in many place in many ways.
  • that GOD would create millions of critters simply to lead to a hairless monkey that's good with tools.
  • that GOD expects any more than that we try to the best of our ability.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 04-25-2005 9:01 AM CK has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 11 of 87 (202281)
04-25-2005 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by riVeRraT
04-25-2005 2:32 PM


Re: One and the same
In regards to the forums I meant that what is discussed here just reinforces my own views on religion.
i'm sorry Riverrat - your christian god is just a bust for me. I'm not really that interested in exploring that avenue any further - it's a waste of resources.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by riVeRraT, posted 04-25-2005 2:32 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by riVeRraT, posted 04-25-2005 10:32 PM CK has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 100 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 12 of 87 (202290)
04-25-2005 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
04-25-2005 9:01 AM


I'm totally undecided on the existence of some kind of supernatural being. Seems possible; though whether it was all powerful or even conscious seems pretty hard to determine.
So what if, for the sake of argument, there really is a god or gods, who don't take kindly to non-belief? I take some comfort from the sheer number of contrasting religious dogmas. I think the odds are on my side in that respect.
I'm going to be dismayed if there is a hell and I'm going to it, obviously. Like would happen say, if the Christian fundamentalists are right.
In a sense, I think that if the rapture actually happens, it will be quite nice in the sense that it will at least offer some evidence of God's existence. I can really get cracking on the belief then, no problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 04-25-2005 9:01 AM CK has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 13 of 87 (202305)
04-25-2005 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
04-25-2005 9:01 AM


So basically - God could exist but I currently don't see anything to convince me at present.
Same here - I'm not ruling out the possibility but I haven't experienced anything yet to make me think there is one.
The more I experience and the more I read on those forums and other places, the more I am convinced that the God of the christians and the muslims is a deadend - a construction of the human mind. That does not mean that I have entirely discounted the idea of "God" but rather I have found those particular franchises to be wanting.
Ditto again - I do strongly believe that if there is a God it isn't the Jewish/Christian/Islamic one.
I also have to agree with schrafinator that if there is a God it may well be completely beyond our comprehension.

The Tigers roared in Dublin - and I was there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 04-25-2005 9:01 AM CK has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 14 of 87 (202306)
04-25-2005 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Primordial Egg
04-25-2005 1:20 PM


Off topic question
Is your avatar a snapshot from the credits to Monkey ?

The Tigers roared in Dublin - and I was there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Primordial Egg, posted 04-25-2005 1:20 PM Primordial Egg has replied

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 15 of 87 (202308)
04-25-2005 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by MangyTiger
04-25-2005 4:51 PM


Re: Off topic question
My guess was a submerged teenage mutant ninja turtle.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by MangyTiger, posted 04-25-2005 4:51 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
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