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Author | Topic: Why Would a Loving God Create Hell? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 6169 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
ICANT your hypothetical scenario is like your prior post completely disconnected and unrelated from the question.
Why would God require a belief in an invisible entity with incomplete, corruptible and questionable evidence as a condition of get-of-hell? Again this is the formula of chain letters and con men, why would God's plan look just like a chain letter or a con?
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 292 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: |
ICANT, I'll take a stab at answering your questions, if that's OK. The main problem is that I don't think that your example is a fair comparison to what you have said about God, the fall and damnation.
You have committed murder. You have been convicted. You have been sentenced to die in the gas chamber. I'm afraid that my first quibble comes on line one. I have committed no murder. I assume that my having murdered someone in your example is a metaphor for original sin, the sin of Adam and Eve. I do not accept original sin. I am not responsible for a crime committed by my most ancient ancestor. Even if I did accept responsibility, the death penalty is far too harsh a punishment for scrumping. It is also worth mentioning that the death penalty seems merciful compared to the eternal lake of fire.To me, your example reads more like this; I have been accused of stealing fruit, a relatively minor crime that I did not commit.I have been falsely convicted. I have been sentenced to die in the gas chamber, a punishment out of all proportion with the alleged crime. Let's continue with your version;
It has been 20 years since conviction. All appeals have run out. You have your last meal. Green-lip mussels, in a fragrant broth of Thai herbs I think. Mmmmmmmmm.
The morning the sentence is to be carried out they come for you... The warden... turns to you and says the President of the United States is offering you a full pardon, will you accept it? Of course. But with the following caveat; I will accept the pardon, out of desperation, but I would be lying if I said that I thought it was fair.
Now I want you to tell me what your thoughts is towards the President. At this point you have to understand this; it is the President's fault that I am here in the first place.In your example, the President is a stand-in for God. As I have outlined already, God could have prevented the fall. He could have forgiven Adam and Eve. He could have chosen a less severe punishment, but instead chose the most terrible punishment imaginable. Most importantly in this case, he could have chosen not to punish me for the sin of my ancestor. Let's see how this applies to your example. The President knows that I stole no fruit.He knows that it was, in fact, someone else. He has already executed them. He has already executed billions more innocent people for the same crime. He could have prevented the original crime from ever occurring in the first place. He acted in such a way as to ensure that the crime took place, even though he knew in advance that it would occur. He chose to send me to the gas chamber, rather than inflict a more measured punishment. He has left me to suffer for the last twenty years, when he could have freed me at any time. Only at the last moment does he chose to save me from the fate he condemned me to, apparently on a whim. Most gallingly of all, he also seems to want me to love and respect him, despite his behaviour. What do I think of the President? I think he's a scumbag. But then I get that a lot with US Presidents. Mutate and Survive
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Tal Member (Idle past 5931 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
This alleged God requires an individual to believe this however the evidence is flimsy, speculative, questionable and even conflicting. Why would this God (who created the material universe) remain so coy, hidden and aloof? If an omnipotent God wanted us to know his existence he could do so without question. Sure He could. But power doesn't equal goodness. Anyone who has met a bully knows the truth of this.
quote: Any parent or lover knows this: love is chosen. You cannot, in the end, force anyone to love you. Which brings us to the challenge that God faces in rescuing a people who have no idea how captive they are.
quote: He wanted a lover. So the great king disguised himself as a beggar and went alone to the maiden's door in the woods to win her heart. And that is a parable of Jesus of Nazareth. God himself, the King of all creation, takes on human flesh and enters our story as one of us. He sets aside his glory, clothes himself with humility, and sneaks into the enemy camp, under cover of night, and tells us, "I have come for you." On the other hand Kierkegaard's tale doesn't capture the cost the King will have to pay to ransom his beloved. He will have to die to rescue you. Remember, God warned us back in the Garden of Eden that the price of our mistrust and disobedience would be death. Not just physical death, but a spiritual death--to be separated from God and life and all the beauty, intimacy, and adventure forever. The coming of Jesus was far more like the opening scenes of Saving Private Ryan. A dangerous mission, a great invasion, a daring raid into enemy territory, to save the free world, but also to save one person (YOU). Yes, God is offering you a free gift, but that gift was purchased by Jesus in the form of a terrible death on the cross. It isn't like he's up in heaven, yawning, flippantly holding his hand out dangling salvation like a pepperment candy. It cost him a great deal to offer you the gift and he offers it freely.
This alleged God requires an individual to believe this however the evidence is flimsy, speculative, questionable and even conflicting. The evidence may in debate for you, but I've read and seen enough to draw my own conclusions about the evidence. However this is another thread entirely. Edited by Tal, : Added a line for the second quote. We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton
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ICANT Member (Idle past 281 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Granny Magda writes: ICANT, I'll take a stab at answering your questions, if that's OK. I would love for you to take a stab at answering my questions. As proposed in Message 119 where I said:
ICANT writes: I am going to describe a hypothetical scenario and I would like for you to analyze it for me please. A hypothetical scenario would be where you put yourself in the place of the individual that had actually committed murder. Now if you would like to do that and then answer my question I would love to see your answers. The garbage you typed as answers to my questions is answers to what you wanted my questions to be. Have fun, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member (Idle past 281 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi iceage,
iceage writes: ICANT your hypothetical scenario is like your prior post completely disconnected and unrelated from the question. Had you answered the questions as proposed I would have shown you how it was very related to the question. But since you have no desire to communicate. Later gator, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 6169 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
iceage writes: This alleged God requires an individual to believe this however the evidence is flimsy, speculative, questionable and even conflicting. Why would this God (who created the material universe) remain so coy, hidden and aloof? If an omnipotent God wanted us to know his existence he could do so without question.
Tal writes: Any parent or lover knows this: love is chosen. You cannot, in the end, force anyone to love you. I have seen various forms of this argument (often with reference to free will) ie "God doesn't not want to force us to love him". By providing verifiable and concrete evidence of his existence does not in any way entail "forcing" love. The Kierkegaard parable fails in so many ways. One in as you pointed out the King does not die. However the king does not dangle the seduction of "everlasting life" in front of the beloved either or threaten with punishment. To rewrite the Kierkegaard parable you have to have the king to tell his beloved "Love me and enjoy my palace, refuse and experience my dungeon". Does that work? If God as you contend wants our free love then would he dangle the (self-centric) seduction of the survival of the ego beyond the grave and threaten of punishment in hell? To those who claim they "Love the Lord" take self salvation out of the picture and see if they "Love the Lord" - is this free unconditional love? But I alway come back to this... The religious doctrine that says "believe in this invisible being and be saved, ignore and pay the consequences" plays with the same psychology as a chain letter. God would not write a chain letter. Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 6169 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
I don't want to communicate? You are playing some game that does not address the question in any way, but is a diversionary tactic.
The answer is obvious anyone would say "yes" save me. OK now explain why would the God of the expansive material universe hide within a human historical context, provide no physical or material evidence, provide no independently verifiable evidence, delivered a confusing and conflicting message that people have interpreted a thousands different ways, a message that has evolved over time, and present Sola Fide that plays just like a chain letter - small entrance fee, with a promise of bliss and a threat of eternal punishment. This message is an optimized meme-complex honed and naturally selected over the years that effectively takes over its hosts and compels the infected to spread the message again and again.
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 292 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: |
Hi ICANT,
I'm sorry,but your questions are not relevant to the discussion, for the reasons I outlined above. Your example is a bad fit for your ideas about Hell and salvation, as outlined in Message 109. Stop obfuscating with irrelevant side issues. Why would a loving and moral god tolerate torture? Mutate and Survive
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ICANT Member (Idle past 281 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi iceage,
I would have rather you answered rather than just say OK I give up now tell me why this or that. Nevertheless.
OK now explain why would the God of the expansive material universe hide within a human historical context, God is not hiding in anything. You think He is hiding because you don't know Him.First off God the Father has not been fully seen nor has he talked with a human since He walked and talked with the first man in the garden. The first man's choice to disobey God separated God and man. Moses was allowed to view the hinder parts of God through a crevice in the rocks and when he came to where the people were he had to cover his head because it was so bright they could not stand it. Those are the only two occasions that God has shown Himself to mankind, that I know of. I do know it says in Revelation that in the New Heaven and earth that is to come that God Himself will be there and I will get to see Him. BTW the earth we live in melts with fervent heat this was told some 1900 years ago. 2Pet 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Back to God hiding. I have had the opportunity to sit on the south side of Little Cayman in the middle of the Caribbean Ocean. It was a beautiful sight, It was a cloudless night the stars abounded, the moon was almost full, It seemed as if I could reach up and touch the stars they were so vivid. As I sat there in the sand looking out over the calm waters I could see God everywhere. The creation declares God. But if we have our head buried in the sand you see nothing.
provide no physical or material evidence, iceage what would you want God to provide?He sent His Son to pay the sin debt of man. But while He was here on earth He made the blind to see, the lame to walk, the dead to live. There were many witnesses. Many things were written down so we would have a record. Can God help it if you have made up your mind not to believe the record of His Son.
provide no independently verifiable evidence, What would you have God supply? He supplied you the entire universe. Man has spent billions of dollars trying to prove God didn't do it. They have not accomplished that yet although some would like to claim they have.
delivered a confusing and conflicting message Gods message is not a conflicting message. It is clearly understood by many.
people have interpreted a thousands different ways, At last count I had it was over 33,000 different ways.But you can't blame God for people believing what they want to. Remember the first man ate of the tree of good and evil so man knows what is good and what is evil he just interprets that to suit himself and then he interprets God's message to say what he wants it to. Don't blame God for that. and present Sola Fide that plays just like a chain letter - small entrance fee, Yes iceage there are many religions that will tell you many different things some of which are. iceage to go to heaven your good deeds have to outweigh your bad deeds. You must be a member of our church. You must be baptized. You must be faithful. You must tithe. You must live by our set of rules and regulations. If you falter and do not continue doing all these things until you die you will go to hell anyway. That is just a few of the many things you would be told by the many different denominations. I am telling you all you have to do is receive a full pardon (makes no difference what you have done or will do it is all covered in this pardon. This pardon does not cost you one cent. You do not have to be good to obtain it. All you have to do is believe God. That He sent his Son to pay your sin debt and that if you would trust in Him for eternal life He would give it to you.
a threat of eternal punishment It is no threat it is a promise that if you do not receive the pardon you will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Now the topic is, why would this loving God that I think I have described Create Hell? I pointed out in Message 102 God created Hell for the devil and his angels. But nobody is satisfied with that answer. But in reality that is the only reason it was created. Because that is what God said it was created for. Any arguments to the contrary should be taken up with God. Now as to why he would allow man to go there. That is not God's choice. The first man sold you into slavery and doomed you to hell. If God does nothing you go to hell. Roma 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; All are under the penalty of sin. Which is.. Roma 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Death and separation from God as He can not have sin in His presence. John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. This included you in God's love. And since He did not want you to go to hell as your predecessor chose for you, He gave His only begotten Son. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. You like everybody else keep saying God is mean because He wants to make me do something or He is going to send me to hell. This verse of scripture says you are already condemned to hell. You and only you can change that. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This verse tells you what is required so you do not continue to be condemned. In my hypothetical scenario about the condemned murder that is your position before God. He is offering you a full pardon. Will you accept it? In Message 127 you said:
iceage writes: The answer is obvious anyone would say "yes" save me. I don't know if you are jerking my chain or not. But if you meant that answer what is the difference in your condition before God. Now I would like to take one last stab at clearing up the myth of God's being mean and hateful because he is punishing us for the first man's disobedience. A hypothetical scenario: I have an estate that would make Bill Gates diggs look like the slums.I tell you that you can live there forever. All you have to is to look after it. Everything is provided for you. I say iceage there is a door that has a sign on it that says do not open, it is not locked but if you open that door you must leave the estate that day. One day you can't stand it any longer you have to open the door. A red light goes off. About an hour later a big truck pulls up and says iceage you opened the door. Get your things you must leave now. iceage is evicted from my estate. Would you blame this on me? Would it be my fault? What right would your descendents have to come and live in my estate? That is exactly what happened so quit blaming God. It not His fault. Again back to why would a Loving God Create Hell. Without it you would have no choice. You say:But I don't believe in God. Not my problem. I don't believe the Bible. Not my problem. I don't believe you. Not my problem. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member (Idle past 281 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Granny,
Granny Magda writes: Why would a loving and moral god tolerate torture? I thought we were talking about why a loving God would create Hell. But to answer your question. God is a God of justice. In other words if you can't do the time don't do the crime. But He did make away you could void the final verdict. All you have to do is accept the full pardon offered. Have fun, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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sidelined Member (Idle past 6162 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
ICANT
But He did make away you could void the final verdict. All you have to do is accept the full pardon offered. Good point. He sends his only son {not including the sons of God from the old testament} which is in reality God himself according to trinity hypothesis. Then he sacrifices his son {actually himself} through a blod sacrifice. Now exactly how does a blood sacrifice cancel out all the sins that Christians committed when they gave themselves to Christ? Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.
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Force Inactive Member |
GM,
The LDS faith teaches that a husband having been bound to his wife for eternity in a LDS Temple and having been equipt with the Melchizedek Priesthood can obtain exaltation to Godhood even as Jesus Christ. The LDS teaching is that we are all God's children, like Christ, but through Christ we can obtain Godhood. The Godhood leads to creation of more spiritual children, even as us, that will live a life, even as us, and also Godhood over other planets, even as ours, but however in a very distant future. So, Yes, that means that Jesus Christ/'(is married and has a wife) father+wife has a father+wife and so on. The reason the other Gods+wifes are not mentioned in the Bible is because they are not the focus of our planet. Now the issue is that even if you can accept Jesus Christ in the afterlife and be saved; you will not be granted this Godhood in the afterlife unless you have been bound for eternity to your wife and have equipt the Melchizedek Priesthood in your life on earth. NOTE: The trinity according to LDS teachnigs is actually three different beings but however they are all united in the same purpose. Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given. Thank you
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ICANT Member (Idle past 281 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi sidelined,
sidelined writes: Good point. He sends his only son {not including the sons of God from the old testament} which is in reality God himself according to trinity hypothesis. Then he sacrifices his son {actually himself} through a blod sacrifice. I take it that you are trying to say you stupid idiot God had more sons than one. Yes I agree I Are One. But He had only one begotten Son. That Son is God the Son of the Trinity. The sin sacrifice. I will try to explain that for you. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Today they are in different places taking care of different jobs. .At one point in the past they were all in one place. At a point in the future (near future I hope) they will be all in one place with only one job. sidelined writes: Now exactly how does a blood sacrifice cancel out all the sins that Christians committed when they gave themselves to Christ? I think I will use one of Percys favorites here. For the umpteenth time that is not how it works. There is only one sin that separates you from God. The sin that your ancestor the first man committed in the garden. He willfully disobeyed a direct order of God. For that disobedience his relationship with God was severed. Thus all his descendants was separated from God. The first man sold his descendants to the devil. Jesus died on the cross so that relationship could be restored. In other words He paid the price so you would not have to be in bondage to the devil. I am sure you have seen much discussion about freewill well this is where it comes into play you can accept the offer of the pardon or you can choose to remain in bondage to the devil. Its your choice and no pressure is put on you to choose either way just realize that there are consequences to your choice either way you decide. Now it is up to you. What do you choose. Sincerely, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 292 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: |
ICANT,
I thought we were talking about why a loving God would create Hell. We are. The torture I refer to is the torture that supposedly occurs in Hell. Your response about God being a god of justice is insufficient justification for the cruel and unusual punishment of Hell. God's "love me or burn for eternity" escape clause is even more unreasonable, only compounding the offense.
In other words if you can't do the time don't do the crime. I would love to know what crime you think I have committed. For that matter, what crime has the virtuous heathen committed? Or a baby who dies before having had a chance at accepting Jesus as saviour?If a human being tortures someone they are quite rightly regarded as beyond the pale. If God does it, it's justice. Go figure. If God is morally superior to humanity, why is he unable to abide by the same moral standards that we expect of people? I would have thought that he could do better. Mutate and Survive
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 292 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: |
Hi tthr3,
Now the issue is that even if you can accept Jesus Christ in the afterlife and be saved; you will not be granted this Godhood in the afterlife unless you have been bound for eternity to your wife and have equipt the Melchizedek Priesthood in your life on earth. Only an egomaniac would want to become a god. I have no such desire thanks. Mutate and Survive
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