THE ELECT: DID GOD CHOOSE YOU TO SPEND ETERNTIY WITHOUT HIM?

crashfrog writes:

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Why can't a big donation to the poor or homeless pay for a peek at your dad's Playboys?

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Well, that's one of the big reasons for the Protestant/Catholic schism. If I recall correctly, one of the points made in the 95 Theses was the selling of indulgences in the Catholic Church. It angered Luther quite a bit that people were able to use money to gain religious absolution.Of course, even the Bible can't figure out if salvation is gained through faith or works. For example:Romans 3:28: A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.And yet:Matthew 16:27: For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.So, it's not surprising to find one general branch of Christianity insisting that you need merely to believe (Protestant) while another branch insists you have to do something (Catholic).I realize I am simplifying greatly, but those are the general trends.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

...filthy, unclean, lascivious, unholy, unrighteous, murderers, haters of God, etc. (Romans 1 and 3, KJV).Does anyone else out there want me to retract "filthy" from the KJV Bible.What part of "filthy" don't you (or anyone else) understand? Filthy in heart, soul, mind, and strength? Filthy and rotton to the core? And filthy in a body which can never be sterilized.True, God has washed and sanctified filthy persons so that they truly are no longer filthy in God's eyes, but these persons basically either:
1) confess to being filthy wretches,
2) are innocent children who are unashamed of their nakedness.
3) are actors (hypocrites) who forget why they hide their shameful nakedness with clothes.Does not nature teach you we are a filthy abomination without clothes?Are you trying to say your mouth (and mine) is not an open sepulchre whose stench never needs cleansing?And, You want me to retract what the scriptures have proven true: I'm NOT clean of guilt and neither are you, SANS being washed by God Himself? E.g., You and I need to be made clean of gross filthiness via some sort of baptismal regeneration. And even after that you and I will still contract some defilement and filthiness.This is because none is good, not one. We are altogether become as an unclean thing.Go run around shamefully naked if you don't believe it? Publicly take your clothes off if you feel so clean. The police call it indecent exposure (a form of filthiness). I for one don't want to stare at anyone's wretched filthy nakedness, but would rather hide my eyes from contamination by it.Does filthy pride betray you? I retract nothing. We're all guilty of complete and utter filthiness, I'm afraid. Hence, we have painful laws to protect one another, and more lawyers than missionaries.Are you and I:
(1) so sanctified and holy before God ...or
(2) filthy hell-bent wretches (half beast and half devil) saved by being cleaned by God alone? ...or
(3) a mixture of (2) filth and (1) cleanliness (=hypocritical)?Romans 1 and 3 summarize to say, let God be true and all men (you and I liars) ... in this matter of sin/filthiness.Conclusion:
You and I need groaning in sinner's prayer(s) to be made clean before God; e.g. (1st person):God, you did choose/reserve me to spend eternity in hell or in Christ's cleansing righteousness alone.I know of no other mechanism to cleanse me: May the blood of your Christ be totally cleansing upon my filthy rags of self-righteousness and upon my filthy mind to sanctify me and cleanse me for eternity.Quickly save me, a miserable filthy reprobate wretch and hell-deserving sinner, and faithfully forgive me each and every of my billions of filthy sins I've committed in my total wretched existence.Wash me and cleanse me from all self-righteousness/unrighteousness. Purge my conscience always by the Blood of Christ that was shed in my stead.Please regenerate and resurrect me with nothing but the cleansing blood of Christ.I realize I'm as filthy as a leper in my soul as my own ungodly thoughts vex my soul to destroy and damn me.Lord Jesus God, Be the center of my mind, soul, strength, and heart and raise me out from my filthy sepulchre. I'm altogether undone, unclean, and have this sin of filthy pride ever before me. I give it up, then, I can't do anything clean or right SANS You.In sum then, I now believe I am elected to:
1) remember how that Christ died for my sins according to the scriptures,
2) and that he was buried,
3) and that he rose again from the dead according to the scriptures (lest I have dogmatically-speculated/believed in vain).[This message has been edited by Philip, 05-29-2003]

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In sum then, I now believe I am elected to:
1) remember how that Christ died for my sins according to the scriptures,
2) and that he was buried,
3) and that he rose again from the dead according to the scriptures (lest I have dogmatically-speculated/believed in vain).

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As the Scotsman said to the man who said he would always be an Englishman - "Hoots, mon, have ye nae ambition?"Surely you think God has something better up His sleeve than a small list of propositions to believe in?

True, God has washed and sanctified filthy persons so that they truly are no longer filthy in God's eyes, but these persons

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basically either:
1) confess to being filthy wretches,
2) are innocent children who are unashamed of their nakedness.
3) are actors (hypocrites) who forget why they hide their shameful nakedness with clothes.

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Does not nature teach you we are a filthy abomination without clothes?

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What are you, a nun?quit living in the 17th C. You sound like my grandmother, all this Puritan stuff and 'unclean', pious talk is simply a sign of your own insecurity and repressed sexuality.

G Mr. Pamboli et al,Seems we're cyber-analyzing (with Freudian clichs nonetheless) and drifting away from this post's topic:THE ELECT: DID GOD CHOOSE YOU TO SPEND ETERNTIY WITHOUT HIM?Please try to get back to this subject of election SANS any of these anal-fixations (if you will), or take it to the coffee house, or try the talk-origins archive.Anyone who wants to speak semi-coherently in this matter of election vs. free-will?I.e.,
1) While jogging this a.m. I couldn't help but conclude we're all like Skinnerian rats, damned/cursed in the flesh but renewed in our minds and bodies by Redemptive Force(s).2) Now if Redeeming Love is new every a.m. (allowing me to breath, jog, hope in forgiveness by a Christ's living atonement, etc.) that still makes me a Skinnerian rat.3) Now, how to perform that which is good (before God) I know not? Thus, I'm entirely predestined to go to Heaven, albeit, a Skinnerian rat being rewarded, prompted, antagonized, punished, etc. with multi-level stimulus-response behavior.Care to refute, comment, rebut, etc.?

If you have time could you reply a little more down to earth for a filthy wretched idiot like myself.Thanks in advance,Philip

Proven? How did they prove anything? What constitutes proof to you?

It's simple enough. You seem to think (from your post) that all God has for you are a few propositions to believe in. Surely there's more to it? Conscious communion with the Almighty? Some kind of spiritual quickening? What's it all really about?

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What part of "filthy" don't you (or anyone else) understand? Filthy in heart, soul, mind, and strength? Filthy and rotton to the core? And filthy in a body which can never be sterilized.

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True, God has washed and sanctified filthy persons so that they truly are no longer filthy in God's eyes, but these persons basically either:
1) confess to being filthy wretches,
2) are innocent children who are unashamed of their nakedness.
3) are actors (hypocrites) who forget why they hide their shameful nakedness with clothes.

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Does not nature teach you we are a filthy abomination without clothes?

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Are you trying to say your mouth (and mine) is not an open sepulchre whose stench never needs cleansing?

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And on and on...Wow.My goodness.This is completely disturbing and very, very sad.What self-loathing and disgust for nature you have, Philip.That post was reason #189 on the list of "Why I am not a Christian."

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That post was reason #189 on the list of "Why I am not a Christian."

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Uhhhh, my sarcasm filter is functioning poorly these days. You really have a list that long? 'Cause I'd like to see that....

Let me say right off the start here that I do not proffess to have the answer to this question, however I have some musings as to what this may be all about.Let's say God is standing outside of time looking at the whole of creation, from the beggining to the end, and let's make creation a fruit tree of some kind.He will harvest (or elect) the fruit from the tree, which was of course the reason for planting the tree in the first place (predetimernied). He will also cut away the dead and fruitless branches and discard them so that the tree will have only healthy fruit bearing branches for the next season.Now this analogy is definately flawed, in that the branch of a tree does not choose wheter or not it will produce fruit, or die.We are like a branch that has the choice whether or not we will allow the gardener to prune and cultivate us (free will). We have been given the choice to be a fruitfull branch or not.Now I know that this analogy is flawed, and very possibly the concept as well but it is the concept I'm getting at. Please don't get lost in attacking the analogy. I hope what I am getting at is clear enough as I have lost half the ideas I had when I started to type this post. The mind is faster than the fingers.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

"Bearing branches for the next season"... Now that's a strange analogy coming from a Christian. Do you suggest some kind of reincarnation here? God picks up the good guys so they can take part... in some next world, Round 2 where we are born again and cast into another world of free will and responsibility?

I suppose it all really depends on how you define 'fruitful'.

No, I don't have an actual list written down. I chose that big number to indicate that there are MANY reasons that Christianity is repellant to me.

No I think it all really depends on how God defines fruitful.