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Author Topic:   What you want to know about Christ.
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 286 of 300 (432810)
11-08-2007 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by LinearAq
11-08-2007 10:56 AM


Re: Experience = Reality?
LinearAq
If I did, then I would have to accept everything from Angelic Crystals to Zeus as real.
Hey! If Zeus thinks smoking angelic crystals is real who are we to deny his reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by LinearAq, posted 11-08-2007 10:56 AM LinearAq has not replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 287 of 300 (432865)
11-08-2007 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Taz
11-07-2007 10:56 PM


Re: human experience
TAZ: "I still don't understand what you are saying here. Perhaps you could be a little less cryptic? Are you saying that a person having a prejudice against someone else because of his sexual orientation is not bigotry? Are you saying that only racists are bigots but homophobes are not? Please be less cryptic."
TAZ, I am referring directly to you personally from the information you have given. You are being intolerant, as defined in 'bigotry', towards those who do not agree with you.
It is not a case of right or wrong. It is a case of 'who you, personally, are being' and 'what you, personally, are doing'. In fighting your case to be right, are you are becoming a 'bigot?'.
There is a saying that comes to mind : Let him who is without sin throw the first stone.
There is a background story to every human being. We are all a product of our whole life experiences and each one is unique. If you desire change then the change begins with you. If you wish to see tolerance amongst others then you first must be tolerant. You have to be what you want to see.
It's sort of putting your money where your mouth is. You cannot get away with preaching 'do as I say and not as I do'. We have many leaders doing just that. Are you being a shepherd or a sheep?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Taz, posted 11-07-2007 10:56 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by LinearAq, posted 11-08-2007 7:34 PM pelican has replied
 Message 292 by Taz, posted 11-12-2007 9:40 PM pelican has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 288 of 300 (432870)
11-08-2007 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by LinearAq
11-08-2007 10:56 AM


Re: Experience = Reality?
I too am very skeptical on the conclusions drawn from the experiences but no problem at all with the description of the experience.
"A friend of yours has the "experience" of God telling her that she can fly and needs to spread His word by flying around San Francisco. She says the she is going to jump off the Golden Gate bridge to start this flight as God has ordered her. So...do you de-humanize her by discounting her "experience", or do you let San Francisco Bay de-humanize her as she "experiences" deceleration trauma?"
Only the first part was the experience. The second part is the conclusion the friend has drawn from the experience. She must have had prior experiences before reaching this level but even so, if she truly believes she can fly then the answer to your question is a bit obvious, isn't it?
Her problem is in not accepting it is all in her mind and nothing to be afraid of. What you can do is listen and challenge her conclusions(in a safe environment.) Get her to demonstrate her flying abilities. Show her she has choices and doesn't need to do everything she is told, not even by god. That's the real bloody problem. God says jump. We say, how high?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by LinearAq, posted 11-08-2007 10:56 AM LinearAq has not replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 289 of 300 (432876)
11-08-2007 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by pelican
11-08-2007 6:13 PM


Tolerent of everyone?
Heinrik writes:
It is not a case of right or wrong. It is a case of 'who you, personally, are being' and 'what you, personally, are doing'. In fighting your case to be right, are you are becoming a 'bigot?'.
quote:
bigot -noun -- a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
from Dictionary.com
Well, you have a point there. Perhaps we are all bigots to some extent.
I know I am a bigot concerning:
1. People who believe they are allowed to steal, kill and rape with impunity.
2. People who wish to remove the rights of someone because of their race, religion, sex or sexual orientation.
3. People who lie in the name of their God in order to financially profit from it.
I am sure there are other examples with regard to my bigotry.
However, I have never believed that we are supposed to be tolerant of everyone.
Opinions have value. Some have greater value (Do unto others...) and some have lesser value ("Fags should be killed"). The moment we decide that all opinions are of equal value, we cheapen humanity.
For some strange reason, American society has started to believe that "my freedom of speach" means "my freedom from the consequences of or dissenting opinion about my stupid lame-ass harmful ideas that I just spouted out".
Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
When Freddy Phelps and his cult start their chants, they need to be countered at every turn. I may support their right to say stupid hateful things but I don't have to let it go unassailed. To let that kind of garbage go on without voicing the opposite opinion is to place us at their level. Good people doing nothing puts people like Phelps in charge.
So Taz is a bigot...but he is intolerant of the things of which we should be intolerent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by pelican, posted 11-08-2007 6:13 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by pelican, posted 11-09-2007 4:43 AM LinearAq has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 290 of 300 (432934)
11-09-2007 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by LinearAq
11-08-2007 7:34 PM


Re: Tolerent of everyone?
LinearAq: "The moment we decide that all opinions are of equal value, we cheapen humanity."
Another view point: The moment we decide that people with differing opinions are not equal, we cheapen humanity.
"I know I am a bigot concerning:
1. People who believe they are allowed to steal, kill and rape with impunity.
2. People who wish to remove the rights of someone because of their race, religion, sex or sexual orientation.
3. People who lie in the name of their God in order to financially profit from it."
The only thing that makes you into a bigot here is in not tolerating other people. Becoming intolerant to stop intolerance doesn't work. All the above behaviour is tolerated in certain circles and justifed the world over. It's happening everywhere.
"For some strange reason, American society has started to believe that "my freedom of speach" means "my freedom from the consequences of or dissenting opinion about my stupid lame-ass harmful ideas that I just spouted out".
What consequences would there be from someone's dissenting opinion about stupid lame-arse harmful ideas?
I don't know this Phelps guy but if he is putting out garbage, why are people listening to him? I would say voicing your opinion is exactly placing you at their level. Just because you believe your opinion is justifed doesn't change it into truth. It is still an opinion from your point of view.
Good people doing bad things does nothing to stop the Hitlers of this world. The people whose behaviour you question also believe they are good people. Who's the judge? Concensus of opinion? Lord help us!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by LinearAq, posted 11-08-2007 7:34 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by LinearAq, posted 11-09-2007 7:50 AM pelican has replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 291 of 300 (432941)
11-09-2007 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by pelican
11-09-2007 4:43 AM


Re: Tolerent of everyone?
Heinrik writes:
Another view point: The moment we decide that people with differing opinions are not equal, we cheapen humanity.
Where did I say I would not consider them as equals? I just don't consider their point of view of value. I can even make them suffer small consequences for their point of view by not patronizing their business, or not voting for them in an election perhaps.
Are you saying that in order to consider them as equals I must also accept and even espouse their ideas? If that is so then why are you speaking against me at all since you want to treat me as an equal to you?
= The only thing that makes you into a bigot here is in not tolerating other people. Becoming intolerant to stop intolerance doesn't work. All the above behaviour is tolerated in certain circles and justifed the world over. It's happening everywhere.
Please define the parameters that you think I must follow to be considered "tolerant".
What consequences would there be from someone's dissenting opinion about stupid lame-arse harmful ideas?
Making the silent majority (sheep) aware that the ideas are harmful.
Good people doing bad things does nothing to stop the Hitlers of this world.
1. Why is speaking against these people considered a "bad thing"?
2. Why is holding someone accountable for their opinions/actions considered a "bad thing"?
More on topic.
1. What example did Jesus provide to us about this very issue?
2. Did Jesus say that all ideas and opinions have equal value?
3. What action did Jesus take when He noticed that merchants were using the temple to make a profit?
4. Would you consider that action intolerant?
5. Does taking that action make Jesus a "bad" person?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by pelican, posted 11-09-2007 4:43 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by pelican, posted 11-14-2007 6:50 PM LinearAq has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 292 of 300 (433778)
11-12-2007 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by pelican
11-08-2007 6:13 PM


Re: human experience
Heinrik writes:
TAZ, I am referring directly to you personally from the information you have given. You are being intolerant, as defined in 'bigotry', towards those who do not agree with you.
I don't know where you got this idea that I am intolerant of those who don't agree with me. I don't necessarily respect your opinion, but I let you have it.
In the past, I have many times voiced my opinion that Fred Phelps ought to be able to protest at people's funerals (let them be gay, soldier, whatever) given that he and his clan don't violate people's private properties.
But as I have also stated in the past, a human right is a human right. As a straight man, I love the fact that I have been fortunate enough to have found a wonderful woman who was willing to marry me. I absolutely love the fact that at social events all I have to do is say "this is my wife" and there is no doubt in anyone's mind that she is the most important person in my life. I absolutely love the fact that in a hospital all I have to say is "that's my wife" and we are treated as one socially and legally. I absolutely love the fact that if anything was ever to happen to me I can rest easy knowing that whatever I left behind will belong to my wife. I absolutely love the fact that if we decide to have children, we can either have biological children or adopt as many children as we want. I absolutely love the fact that I can hold my wife's hand in public without being told to "cover up" (referencing what happened to a gay couple on a plane a few months ago). In other words, I absolutely love all of these rights that are mine. The right to the pursuit of happiness is the most cherished of all rights in a free country.
Straights, gays, etc. we all have dreams. We all have goals in life. We all want to be happy. The only difference between myself and a gay man is I am attracted to women and he is attracted to men. Why on Earth must we make him forfeit his right to happiness just because what he decides to do in his own bedroom is a little different than what the rest of us want to do in our own bedrooms?
So, you can say that I am intolerant of people who go out of their way to violate other people's freedom. If that's what you think is bigotry, you got me there.
It is not a case of right or wrong. It is a case of 'who you, personally, are being' and 'what you, personally, are doing'. In fighting your case to be right, are you are becoming a 'bigot?'.
By your logic, should I stop being intolerant of the gay haters and fully accept their view? Nemesis_juggernaut would have a field day I'm sure.
I have said this many times in the past. A human right is a human right. It's not negotiable. It's not up for debate. It simply is. Human right issues is one area I absolutely refuse to give any ground. Everyone ought to have the right to pursuit of happiness.
There is a saying that comes to mind : Let him who is without sin throw the first stone.
Sorry, I'm not christian anymore. I would match my set of atheistic morals against christian morals any day.
There is a background story to every human being. We are all a product of our whole life experiences and each one is unique. If you desire change then the change begins with you. If you wish to see tolerance amongst others then you first must be tolerant. You have to be what you want to see.
But I have been trying to tell you that I consider myself very tolerant of others, especially those I don't agree with. It's only when they go out of their way to take away other people's rights that I am against. If Fred Phelps wants to protest at my funeral or my parents' funerals, I won't be happy about it but I will let him given he won't step on my property. He can have his opinion about people like me and I can have my opinion about people like him. But asking me to accept what he wants to do to gay people is just too much to ask.
It's sort of putting your money where your mouth is. You cannot get away with preaching 'do as I say and not as I do'. We have many leaders doing just that. Are you being a shepherd or a sheep?
Well, neither really.
Yes, my money is where my mouth is. For the first time in many years, I will not be voting at all this upcoming primary. Why? I've been trying to watch every debate I could catch, both republican and democrat. I've come to believe that if I vote I will be voting for a bunch of morons. If given a chance, I will tell them to their faces to call whatever that's under their roof a "civil union".
Anyway, by your definition, I am really a bigot for not tolerating christians' attempts to violate human rights. When christianity have something better to put on the table, I will reconsider my position. In the mean time, the few christians that claim to be tolerant can try to fix things within their own christian communities. When push comes to shove, I'm the least of their worries.

Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by pelican, posted 11-08-2007 6:13 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by pelican, posted 11-14-2007 7:51 PM Taz has not replied

gen
Member (Idle past 5979 days)
Posts: 78
Joined: 10-03-2007


Message 293 of 300 (433834)
11-13-2007 3:31 AM


Sincere apologies to all-I have been extremely busy over the past few weeks! I will do my best to catch up soon. If I have missed an important question of your please refer me to it. Again, I'm very sorry!
God Bless you all with His eternal peace.
Gen

gen
Member (Idle past 5979 days)
Posts: 78
Joined: 10-03-2007


Message 294 of 300 (433835)
11-13-2007 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by nator
10-21-2007 8:12 AM


nator writes:
The cell didn't just "randomly" arrange itself. There are many known intermediate steps between "molecule" and "cell".
Yes, I realise that is a quite abridged version of evolution, but there is a random factor in there. You yourself referred to the Science forums, and that is where this discussion belongs.
nator writes:
I must say that if your goal is starting this thread was to evangelize and draw people closer to your faith, displaying the typical religious rejection and ignorance of science and evolution will run counter to your aims.
I do not reject science, I reject the theory of evolution (yes, it is even admitted to be unprovable by its supporters). I believe in creation science instead. But this discussion belongs in the Science Forums.
God Bless you, and sorry for these late replys.
Gen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by nator, posted 10-21-2007 8:12 AM nator has not replied

gen
Member (Idle past 5979 days)
Posts: 78
Joined: 10-03-2007


Message 295 of 300 (433838)
11-13-2007 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by iceage
10-21-2007 4:25 PM


Re: Jesus's circumcision
Ok, Faith in God is NOT having all the answers, but believing God does.
Faith in Science is NOT having all the answers, but believing Science does.
I'm setting the same ultimatum for each, aren't I?
The thing is, God and Science are not opposites. God created the force of gravity, the planet that it keeps you on, the brain you are using to understand what I'm saying, the body you are in, and, yeah, all the rest of the universe too. Therefore God created Science. I don't see why a lot of Christians are so against Science; it is often used to prove what we believe. Really, God and Science in general go hand in hand-though not some 'scientific' theories.
iceage writes:
However I like to remind myself to "Hate the superstition but Love the superstitionist".
Belief in Jesus isn't superstition, but I won't go into that right now. Jesus "hates the sin but loves the sinner" if you don't mind. "God demonstrates His love for us in this; while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans something I think). It's that simple. "...neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to seperate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39). God will still love us, and has already loved us, even though we do wrong. Now you are going to say, why does God send people to hell? aren't you. Well, I don't believe hell is eternal suffering, it is eternal death. People who die after the Second Coming would not be happy in heaven. They would be like Satan-because ultimately that is what sinning is-and want all the power of God. God has the power because he is the only one who knows how to use it properly. Satan tried, and his example is this earth, which is, if you ask me, pretty messed up.
God Bless you always
Gen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by iceage, posted 10-21-2007 4:25 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by iceage, posted 11-13-2007 1:54 PM gen has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 296 of 300 (433840)
11-13-2007 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by gen
10-18-2007 4:37 AM


Re: Bible Study 101
gen
[qs]My first post deliberately asks that people dont argue too much in this thread. I made it for people who are honestly searching for something more in their lives. If you want to debate things, please use another thread. God loves you, and so do I. But this is not the place for a debate.
Son, this is a debate forum. It is indeed the place to debate and the place for you to answer those valid questions asked of you in all honesty.
Yes, I do have answers to what you have stated, but this thread is not the place. I welcome you views, not your arguments.
I am sorry.sir, but I have doubts that You are doing anything but avoiding having to answer the question Brian raised about the verses in the bible that contradict you. You leave the audience here with the distinct taste that you are not merely unable to answer but unwilling to as well. This thread is indeed the place to answer the questions if you can. If you cannot then have the strength of character to admit your inability.
Almost everything in your post I have been over before. I am praying for you, and everyone else in this forum, sincerely that you may come to know Christ as I do.
It does not matter if you have been over this before as there is an audience viewing this who may not have heard your answers before. Regardless ,if the answers are available, then it behooves you to put them forth ,not to scurry down the rathole in fear that you cannot.
As the Missouri state slogan goes "SHOW ME!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by gen, posted 10-18-2007 4:37 AM gen has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 297 of 300 (433900)
11-13-2007 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by gen
11-13-2007 6:00 AM


Re: Jesus's circumcision
gen writes:
The thing is, God and Science are not opposites.
A very excellent observation. Science is an attempt to understand God and his handiwork as they really are.
Religion is an attempt to understand God through a human lens. It is really more about worshiping man than anything. Making God in mans image is really just making a monkey out of God!
iceage writes:
However I like to remind myself to "Hate the superstition but Love the superstitionist".
gen writes:
Belief in Jesus isn't superstition
I understand that superstition is a loaded pejorative word with negative connotations. However in the abstract, most religious thought really is superstition in priestly vestments.
Superstition is an belief or ritual based not on reason or empirical evidence, but on lack of understanding or fear of the unknown.
Believing that some deity is going to save your ego/personality beyond the grave is superstition by definition.
gen writes:
Now you are going to say, why does God send people to hell? aren't you. Well, I don't believe hell is eternal suffering, it is eternal death.
That actually was a good guess and saved a few posts back and forth. You believe this, counter to the passages in the Bible, because you are a good person.
gen writes:
They would be like Satan-because ultimately that is what sinning is-and want all the power of God.
I don't want the "power of God" and actually no one I know, wants the power of God. I just can't believe in some deity with no evidence as a means to preserving my life.
gen writes:
Satan tried, and his example is this earth, which is, if you ask me, pretty messed up.
Actually according to the Bible God made the earth and everything in it. Calling it pretty messed up is really blaming God. However, I don't believe that the things are pretty messed up but are improving - look just two to three hundred years ago slavery was common (and justified from the scriptures), most people lived lives of drudgery and labor with little free time to ponder big questions, people where executed for blasphemy, women were second class citizens, etc.
I believe, if you allow me to be philosophical for a moment, that in general, life on this planet has a purpose within a universal context... We just don't have a clue what it is yet. Until we do understand I believe our goal should be get our collective DNA off this gravity hole as the long term prospects are not good. We are all in this together and we win/lose collectively and some are not permitted an early out because of some "faith" or irrational belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by gen, posted 11-13-2007 6:00 AM gen has not replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 298 of 300 (434171)
11-14-2007 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by LinearAq
11-09-2007 7:50 AM


Re: Tolerent of everyone?
Hi LinearAq, sorry for the delay in responding.
I have previously avoided discussing issues because mainly they are 'principles' and in principle I actually agree with you. I am totally against intolerance, racism, gay bashing, violence, exploitation, manipulation, oppression, greed, apathy and the list goes on but very, very few humans see themselves this way.
I'm full of principles and, through personal experience, I have good reason to be. However, I understand evreyone else has good reason also. Each of us has good reason for our principles through each individual personal life experience. This is where we are all equal. Could it be a case of, 'there but for the grace of god go I'?
We cannot change people. It is arrogant to try to do so. You can only change yourself. I am simply advocating that in order for us to influence a united, harmonious human race, then we have to understand each other, as opposed to vehemently standing by principles.
In the case of the 'bigots', aren't these people mothers, fathers, doctors, lawyers, candle stick makers and all quoting from the bible as you are? Their principles also get in the way of humanity, as does the majority, whatever those principles may be. It is not each other we should be challenging but ourselves.
An example from personal experience is that at the moment, I am struggling with the biggest principle of my life. I am challenging my principle that I will not tolerate others' false opinions of me. I've fought all my life for this principle. No-one knows me as I know me and I am not who others think I am. I have had to walk away from everyone I have ever loved and stand alone. How's that for a powerful principle?
Principles are fine but you have to be prepared to live by them too. It isn't always easy. We could try using the issues to see who we are instead of cultivating them for weapons disguised as principles. We are all guilty of mis-understanding and intolerance of others' behaviour, but the change begins with seeing this in ourselves.
The whole truth will out-shadow any principle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by LinearAq, posted 11-09-2007 7:50 AM LinearAq has not replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 299 of 300 (434182)
11-14-2007 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Taz
11-12-2007 9:40 PM


Re: human experience
Why are you really intolerant of christians? You were one once and yet have no understanding of how their life experiences brought them to their views. You do seem angry and I wonder if you were burnt?
My daughter was burnt by religion. Maybe you can relate. She was in her 20's and feeling vulnerable and lost. For a couple of years she studied to become a J.W and really wanted to fit in. In the process, she did become a bit self-righteous but believed it was following the bible and god's word.
However, she found a boyfriend and had sex. Big NO NO. Fornification. Bloody hell! They sent her to coventry and banned her little perks to show her how sinners are not tolerated. It broke her heart. She knew she wasn't a bad person. She only wanted to be loved.
It was a difficult period in her life but she learned NOT to judge others by their behaviour, as she was. She understands herself much better thanks to that experience. She understands it works for them and is happy for them. She tried the hat on but it didn't fit. She chose to move on. This is life. Choice.
Eventually the only choice we will have to make is to 'NOT BE that which we do not wish humanity to be'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Taz, posted 11-12-2007 9:40 PM Taz has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 300 of 300 (434273)
11-15-2007 6:45 AM


End of Thread
300's the limit
Stow the prose,
No more discussion
It's time to close.
Finis
See you in another thread. Magic Wand

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