What you want to know about Christ.

This does not matter, though. We are discussing whether someone's experience accurately reflects reality, especially when that experience is not shared by anyone else.You are making an argument that is no-brainer. If we are speaking from the point of view of the person seeing the unicorn, of course the experience is real TO HIM. That is not what we are talking about, however. We are talking about telling the difference between fantasy and reality, not whether an experience is real to a person or not.

---

Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to make you blue
Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to hurt you.

​

All lovers make
Make the same mistakes
Yes they do
Yes, all lovers make
Make the same mistakes
As me and you

​

Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to make you blue
Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to hurt you.

​

People take my advice
If you love somebody
Don't think twice.

​

Love you baby love, sugar baby love
Love him anyway, love him everyday

TAZ : "We are discussing whether someone's experience accurately reflects reality, especially when that experience is not shared by anyone else."This is exactly the point I am making. How can we know if for example Joyce Mayers' experiences of god accurately reflect reality? It is only what she says.How can we know if another's experiences of the unseen reflect reality or NOT? We cannot see or prove many claims made of connection with another realm. Take John Edwards as another example. He claims to connect to 'the other side'. Is that logical or provable?The point I am making is that we cannot know what is real because the claims are 'originating from the same place' and appearing within the individual in the same way, as in 'through themselves'.Some claim to hear voices of god, jesus, angels, past humans, aliens, etc, but all come from within. If one hears god telling them to spread the gospel and another doesn't, which is true? If one hears an angel telling them to forgive and another doesn't, which is true? If one hears god telling them to kill and another doesn't, which is true? If one communicates with a dead child and the mother doesn't, which is true?As they all have the same thing in common whether it's the projection of a unicorn or the voice of god, whatever it may be is coming from within the individual. They could not speak of it otherwise.TAZ: "We are talking about telling the difference between fantasy and reality, not whether an experience is real to a person or not."So, how do we tell the difference between fantasy and reality?TAZ: "You are making an argument that is no-brainer."Not a very constructive opinion. Sometimes it is better to keep them to yourself as it tells far more about you than it does about me.

Heinrik We conduct an experiment to test the claims made under proper critical examination to see if the phenomena that is claimed to occur holds water.

That's easy. Tell her to ask god to tell her who will win the world series next year. Have her write it down on a piece of paper before showing it to anyone. Seal it up in a vault somewhere. After next year's world series, open it up and see what god told her. We weigh it against the experiences of other people. Going back to my unicorn example. You are convinced that the unicorn is right there in front of you, but everyone else around you is telling you there is no unicorn. You then try to touch it but the unicorn seems to be noncorporeal so you just go straight through it.At this point, isn't it a little stupid to create a whole religion out of this one experience that noone else can experience? Trust me, I've watched (with a lot of pain) many of his shows. I have not seen ONE instance of him actually giving out any information. It's always the people that are volunteering the information.He always starts out with "they want me to recognize (insert name here)". Notice that they want him to recognize such and such person. In an audience of a hundred people, there's got to be a John sitting somewhere OR someone with an uncle name John. In fact, just give me a random common American name and I guarantee you I have a relative or friend who's got that name.You should really watch his show with more objectivity. Let me ask you this question. If, say, an immaterial pink unicorn is real and that only you can see it but none of the rest of us can, does it really matter if the unicorn is real or not?You are asking us to treat every quack and every nutcase as messiah or prophet. Again, we experiment.Ever heard of Nancy Lieder? She claims to be in direct telepathic connection with an all-knowing alien race called the Zeta. I listened to her interview one time on a radio show. The radio host asked her to give him the answer to a big random number multiplied by another big random number. You know what her response was? Her response was about 5 minutes long rant about how everyone is doomed for not believing her and all of that.Going back to the spreading the gospel thing. Whoever claims to be a messenger of god, ask him something that would at least indicate a higher intelligence at work. Doesn't it strike you odd that none of the modern prophets have ever answered directly to any question that would clue us in on the higher intelligence at the other end? I completely believe you now. God just appeared to me and me alone. He told me that if you post one more post on this forum you will go straight to hell after you die. Take it or leave it. For the millionth time, you experiment. You weigh the experience against the experiences of other, more objective people.Remember not to respond at all. It's best that you don't come back to this forum. I am convinced that my experience with god was real. He really did tell me that you would go to hell for eternity if you post another message on this forum.Have a nice life

---

Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to make you blue
Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to hurt you.

​

All lovers make
Make the same mistakes
Yes they do
Yes, all lovers make
Make the same mistakes
As me and you

​

Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to make you blue
Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to hurt you.

​

People take my advice
If you love somebody
Don't think twice.

​

Love you baby love, sugar baby love
Love him anyway, love him everyday

TAZ: "Remember not to respond at all. It's best that you don't come back to this forum. I am convinced that my experience with god was real. He really did tell me that you would go to hell for eternity if you post another message on this forum."Jesus! It's hot here! Thank god there's still the internet.Do I believe you or not? Did you have that experience or not? You could have had it, yes? Only you would know, yes? "My experience" (as in 'your experience' described above) are the operative words. The focus needs to stay there. They are the beginning. "My experience" means exactly what it says. Either the person has had the experience or is lying about it.Taz: "For the millionth time, you experiment. You weigh the experience against the experiences of other, more objective people."Again the operative words are 'the experience' and 'the experience of others'. All of them are experiences, experienced by human beings and therefore, are all valid as human experiences. There is no need to go any further than the experience itself.We do complicate matters. I've found that it is difficult for a complicated, intelligent person to grasp a simple concept. That is all I am putting forward here. A simple concept prior to examination. Did they have that experience or not?TAZ: "At this point, isn't it a little stupid to create a whole religion out of this one experience that noone else can experience?"I think if you asked this question to anyone the answer would be the same, but it has been done.The point I am trying to make is in defense of those having bizarre, frightening, threatening, wierd and wonderful experiences. If their experience is discounted, they are discounted, and usually labelled. The focus is taken away from the humanity of the person. They are seen as less than. They are de-humanized. This is very wrong.Who are the ones doing the judging? Probably those who haven't had any experiences or don't admit to them. I believe if we are to have a peaceful world then we have to take matters into our our hands and STOP de-humanizing human beings and this is a good place to start.P.S Phew. You do have a lot to say. Your logo suits you.

I asked:
"So, how do we tell the difference between fantasy and reality?"Sidelined: "We conduct an experiment to test the claims made under proper critical examination to see if the phenomena that is claimed to occur holds water."Thanks sidelined, I think I got a little side-tracked there and it's completely out of context.

May I remind you that it's the christians that have always dehumanize other people. It's always us atheists that try to tell christians that gay people are people, too. So please, don't you even start bringing up human right issues with me. I've been suffering high blood pressure in my young age from talking to bigoted christians. I think this is where we disagree the most. Not all experiences are equal.I'm a physicist. I write a lot of programs. I've worked in research labs for years. I have a friend that is an artist. Between my word and hers on certain artwork, whose word do you trust more? Between my word and hers on a physical problem, whose word do you trust more?There is a member here called phat (he recently changed his name to something else). I had a conversation with him in chat one time about his supposed experience with god. He said that one time as he was waking up he felt a very strong, almost overwhelming, presence. He concluded right away that he was in the presence of god.I began to ask him questions about his experience. Did he smell anything? No, he said. Did he see anything? No, he said. Did he feel anything? No, he said. Did he hear anything? No, he said. Could he describe the experience to me? No, he said. Well, what could he tell me about the experience? Nothing, he said. How did he know it was god? Don't know, he said. Ok... did he seek out a second opinion? Nope, he said. Could he tell me anything at all that would give me a clue about what the experience was like? Nothing, he said. So, again, how did he know it was god? It must have been god, he said. Huh?The point is I don't know what he experienced and I certainly don't know if it was god or the devil that bestowed itself onto him. However, if it was me, I'd try to record everything down. If I didn't have any device to record at the time, I'd try to write what I felt down. Why? I am aware that there is such a thing called false memory syndrome. I am also aware of certain sleep disorders, including the most likely candidate for phat's experience which is sleep paralysis.In other words, coming straight to the conclusion that an experience is god does absolutely nothing to help the rest of us understand the experience. Who do you trust more on reporting an experience like that? Phat, who didn't know what was going on immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was god he felt or me who would have done everything to record the moment and avoid as much as possible the imminent false memories that will pop up in my mind later on?Not every human experience is equal. And certainly, not every report of human experience is equal. If I wanted to hear about all the kookoo experiences out there, I would have consulted Pat Robertson long time ago. He prophecized tsunamis and brimstone and fire raining down on the US happening years ago. I'm still waiting for that tsunami hitting the east coast, which was suppose to happen a few years back.

---

Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to make you blue
Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to hurt you.

​

All lovers make
Make the same mistakes
Yes they do
Yes, all lovers make
Make the same mistakes
As me and you

​

Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to make you blue
Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to hurt you.

​

People take my advice
If you love somebody
Don't think twice.

​

Love you baby love, sugar baby love
Love him anyway, love him everyday

Taz: "I've been suffering high blood pressure in my young age from talking to bigoted christians."So you know what it's like to belong to a minority group? Do you know what it's like being in a minority group who experience a different reality than the one you live in?This is obviously an emotional issue for you and I'm truly sorry you have been de-humanized in others' perceptions. It really is terrible but aren't you doing the same by labelling them 'bigoted christians'?

Actually, I belong to an even smaller minority group than you think. My group is called the united brotherhood of straight-people-who-are-damn-tired-of-seeing-gay-people-treated-like-second-class-citizens.Again, I am not saying there is something objectively wrong about being able to experience a so-called different reality. What I am saying is that the best way we can interpret reality is not through mystics but through experimentations and skepticism. But the really main and important point is not every experience and story about an experience is equal and they shouldn't be treated as equal. How so? First of all, bigoted christians ARE the majority, not minority. This is why almost every state in the union has some kind of law against gay marriage and any civil union for gay people that remotely resemble marriage. This is why somdomy laws were finally declared unconstitutional in the 21st century. This is why gay people still can't serve in the army and be open about themselves. This is why over 10,000 (ten thousand) service men and women have been discharged since we invaded Iraq because they were gay (during a time when the military is badly in need of soldiers).Being called "bigoted christian" is a very small price to pay for what the christians have been doing to dehumanize other people for many years now.

---

Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to make you blue
Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to hurt you.

​

All lovers make
Make the same mistakes
Yes they do
Yes, all lovers make
Make the same mistakes
As me and you

​

Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to make you blue
Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to hurt you.

​

People take my advice
If you love somebody
Don't think twice.

​

Love you baby love, sugar baby love
Love him anyway, love him everyday

Taz: "Actually, I belong to an even smaller minority group than you think. My group is called the united brotherhood of straight-people-who-are-damn-tired-of-seeing-gay-people-treated-like-second-class-citizens."great! You are defending the rights of my child but is it just a brotherhood or are sisters invited? Also,is your group not stooping to a lower level by de-humanizing those you name 'bigots? Shall we just throw them to the lions?How much understanding have you of these people living on the other side of your reality? Do you think your reality is the only one and is the correct one and you will label anyone who disagrees?
You are doing exactly the same as they. I think that is an equal experience, don't you?

Dehumanize? It's a fact that they are bigots. Quite a lot of understanding, actually. I grew up christian fundamentalist. You know those christians that are convinced god is always talking to them? I was one of those. I prayed everyday and I heard/felt god everyday.So, yes, I do understand how people perceive that other reality. Nope. Experience and story-telling of experience is not always equal. Most people are in the habit of falling prey to false memory syndrome. Not too long ago, sleep paralysis was still thought to be made by a witch or demon sitting on you. In fact, have you any idea how often I hear people telling a story and knowing they've added in a few extra details here and there while leaving out some important details to create a mystery?I think everything I wanted to say have been said.Conclusion: I don't trust any one's assessment of any phenomenon (not even my own) as much as the concensus of professionals in the said fields.

---

Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to make you blue
Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to hurt you.

​

All lovers make
Make the same mistakes
Yes they do
Yes, all lovers make
Make the same mistakes
As me and you

​

Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to make you blue
Sugar baby love, sugar baby love
I didn't mean to hurt you.

​

People take my advice
If you love somebody
Don't think twice.

​

Love you baby love, sugar baby love
Love him anyway, love him everyday

TAZ: "Dehumanize? It's a fact that they are bigots."C'mon Taz. Bigot: a person who is intolerant,esp.regarding religion or race. You have to be what you want to see.

I still don't understand what you are saying here. Perhaps you could be a little less cryptic? Are you saying that a person having a prejudice against someone else because of his sexual orientation is not bigotry? Are you saying that only racists are bigots but homophobes are not? Please be less cryptic.

---

Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

Which coincides with my request for the references to support that some Egyptians put blood on their doorposts and were thus spared the cull of the first born of each Egyptians family, and that request for the reference that the Egyptians had a choice. Of course the Bible states quite explicitly that the God of the Hebrew Bible (which really isn’t Jesus) was a barbarian, but these Christians, for one reason or another, don’t accept what the Bible says about this. I can only assume that they haven’t read the Bible and they are shocked to discover that it doesn’t say what they would like it to say.Gen’s reference that some Egyptians put blood on their door posts is quite a nice thought if you are a Christian, but it isn’t in the Bible. I hope that Gen hasn’t disappeared because of this error as we all make mistakes now and again, all I wanted was for Gen to admit that S/he had made a mistake and we could have moved on. But, I suppose after setting one’s self up as some sort of expert, it must be difficult to acknowledge that perhaps you don’t know as much as you think you did. Indeed, and some are happy to tell bare faced lies in order to sustain their delusion about what the Bible says.Oh well, not to worry, I am sure another Christian Bible ”expert’ will come along soon.

A friend of yours has the "experience" of God telling her that she can fly and needs to spread His word by flying around San Francisco. She says the she is going to jump off the Golden Gate bridge to start this flight as God has ordered her. So...do you de-humanize her by discounting her "experience", or do you let San Francisco Bay de-humanize her as she "experiences" deceleration trauma? I guess another option is that you actually believe she can fly.The line of questioning that this thread has degenerated to is whether or not a person can tell if their "experience" with Christ is actually an experience with Christ, OR an experience with another, lying, supernatural being, OR a figment of his imagination.For a truth seeker to know he has found the truth, shouldn't there be some defining characteristic of Christ that lets him know he is experiencing Christ?I can respect someone's belief to a point. I don't see how I can accept their belief as reality without something beyond their feeling an experience. If I did, then I would have to accept everything from Angelic Crystals to Zeus as real.