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Author | Topic: What you want to know about Christ. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Yes, but its just so base. Its not that Jesus couldnt do whatever He wanted....its the whole idea of duty to Father and mission in life sorta thing.
I have no problem with Jesus being fully human and having human impulses. I would just like to think that if anyone could resist, Jesus would be able to do so. Perhaps He had nocturnal emissions......
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Brian Member (Idle past 4959 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
He wanted....its the whole idea of duty to Father and mission in life sorta thing. Yes, but when did His mission start? We know nothing about Jesus between the ages of 12 and 30, so anything could have happened. We know, as a boy, it was said that Jesus could get as angry as any other child could, except that there were more serious consequences. When Jesus got angry as a boy He killed other children, one of whom had only bumped into Him. So we see He misused His divine powers several times, so as a spotty teenager I can imagine Jesus having a grand old time.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Here you are pulling in extra-biblical sources on somebody who has not yet even read the Bible.
No Fair! Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Brian Member (Idle past 4959 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Life's not fair!
But at least he now knows the child Jesus was not to be messed with.
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iano Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Schraf writes: So, is there any way to tell the difference between a genuine spiritual experience with God, a real one that you are led to believe is from god but is from the Devil or a demon, and an imagined one? The best way to tell is to ask yourself whether the quality of your knowing is at the max possible. For example: are you as sure of that fact as you are of the fact of your own existance. If you are then it is as real as can be. For you.
The difference between "real" and "imagined" is like the difference between dreaming you are flying and actually flying when you are awake such that you can demonstrate this ability to others in some manner. We might define real as being what a person perceives reality to be. You, for example, would hold reality to be all that is empirically demonstrable (although I'm sure you make an exception for your thoughts which are not empirically demonstrable but might well be considered by you to be real occurances). You have already accepted that what you hold reality to be might not be reality - you might be a brain in a jar and all your empirically demonstrable flying is as real as your dreamtime flying. Given all that, I can't see how empirical demonstrability assists or hinders evaluation of whether an (spiritual) experience is real or not. Unless of course you are an empiricist who has forgotten empiricism is but a philosophy.
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LinearAq Member (Idle past 4676 days) Posts: 598 From: Pocomoke City, MD Joined: |
iano writes:
How can you resist something that you are not even aware of?
- God attempting to draw a person to salvation. He is attempting to convince them of something. The person can resist this - unto damnation even. There is no need that the person be aware it is God attempting to convince them. further, iano writes: - A person at the point of salvation and passing through it. From being a lost person to being a found person. Call it a change of state. - God takes up residence within the person. This includes demonstrating his existance to the person to their complete satisfaction. If not Schrafs and iano writes: That God attempts to save a person doesn't mean a person must be saved. Permission to resist and finally refuse is a God-given right. We are people - not robots....Because the set up of things is such that a person is permitted to escape being convinced. Why does God do this? Well, he gave man will and permits it exercised... ...The direct post-salvation evidence of Gods existance although convincing, is not empirical. It is detectable only by those who have been saved and have the necessary "sensory" equipment. Everyone who is saved see's, everyone who is not doesn't. You are not dealing with some homongenous population In summary: God gave you free will to resist accepting convincing evidence of His existance but that evidence is not manifested to you until you have already given up your free will and become His servant. Why does Jesus choose to remain hidden unless we already believe in Him? Your argument about Jesus taking away our free will if He provided convincing evidence of His existance does not hold water biblically. Satan saw God and Jesus face to face, yet he chose to rebel. I can see that the leader of IRAN exists yet I choose to not serve him.
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LinearAq Member (Idle past 4676 days) Posts: 598 From: Pocomoke City, MD Joined: |
iano writes: I believe this was the crux of the questioning. If you can't demonstrate that it was real, how can you know it was? Given all that, I can't see how empirical demonstrability assists or hinders evaluation of whether an (spiritual) experience is real or not. Jesus states rather emphatically that you should make disciples of all nations (people). What method does He expect you, his disciple, to use to convince others that He is really their savior? Tell you what...raise a couple of dead people...that might lend credence to your belief.
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iano Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
I believe this was the crux of the questioning. If you can't demonstrate that it was real, how can you know it was? I don't think you've followed the discussion. Demonstrating something doesn't mean it is really real. "You" could be a character in some alien kids playstation game and all your "demonstration" is so much button pushing by the kid. What we individually decide is the extent of reality may or may not be the extent of it.
Jesus states rather emphatically that you should make disciples of all nations (people). What method does He expect you, his disciple, to use to convince others that He is really their savior? The method doesn't involve convincing others. My job is simply to act as a messenger boy - to deliver the gospel message to people. It is the work of God, specifically the Holy Spirit to activate that in the attempt to convince them. Consider the gospel to be a tool. I bring it to the site - the Holy Spirit works it.
Tell you what...raise a couple of dead people...that might lend credence to your belief. If Jesus' miracles had not necessarily that effect I doubt this would be the case. It is not my concern that you find my beliefs credible. My concern is that you read what I write so that you are exposed to (aspects of) the gospel. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It is the work of God, specifically the Holy Spirit to activate that in the attempt to convince them. But that tells us nothing. The question is, "How do you tell that it is God (or in your current example the Holy Spirit) that is trying to convince them? What would distinguish the Holy Spirit from some Demiurge? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Consider the gospel to be a tool. I bring it to the site - the Holy Spirit works it. So you're the Holy Spirit's caddy? Wouldn't it make more sense for His protege to demonstrate the product? “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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iano Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
How can you resist something that you are not even aware of? Suppose for a moment that the voice you call your conscience is Gods voice. Sounds like your own perhaps... The Bible says that man suppresses the truth revealed by conscience and seeing as all truth comes from God.. That's how.
In summary: God gave you free will to resist accepting convincing evidence of His existance but that evidence is not manifested to you until you have already given up your free will and become His servant. It's not about resisting convincing evidence as to his existance. Convincing evidence of his existance comes post-salvation, after surrender has already been declared by you. Pre-salvation, when you are still fighting, the resisting that goes on is resisting being convinced of something else that God is trying to convince you of. What he is trying to convince you of is NOT that you believe he exists. He is trying to convince you that you have a problem requiring the existance of God to solve. You don't have to believe in the existance of God to believe that you need God to exist. If you are convinced (by God) that you have a huge problem that would take the existance of God to resolve then you have arrived at the point of salvation. btw: Man doesn't have free will. Or at least he didn't have it after he chose to eat a certain fruit. But that's another story.) Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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Legend Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote: when I was a teenager I used to 'sublimate' on a daily basis.Good for the tension, terrible for the bedsheets! "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4032 Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
btw: Man doesn't have free will. Or at least he didn't have it after he chose to eat a certain fruit. But that's another story.) If man has no free will, that means that God created most people who have ever existed specifically for the purpose of throwing them in Hell for eternal torture. Predestination means that literally everything, from natural disasters to the Holocaust to individual atrocities are entirely God's fault, because he specifically caused it all to happen. It means your god is a petty, sadistic, evil fuck. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Rahvin writes: If man has no free will, that means that God created most people who have ever existed specifically for the purpose of throwing them in Hell for eternal torture. There is biblical support for view somewhere in Romans 9, of course there is also biblical support for the contrary view.
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iano Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
If man has no free will, that means that God created most people who have ever existed specifically for the purpose of throwing them in Hell for eternal torture. Predestination means that literally everything, from natural disasters to the Holocaust to individual atrocities are entirely God's fault, because he specifically caused it all to happen. It means your god is a petty, sadistic, evil fuck. I'm not doing back-of-a-cornflakes-box theology today. Sorry. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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