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Author Topic:   What you want to know about Christ.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 211 of 300 (431292)
10-30-2007 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Brian
10-30-2007 8:34 AM


Re: Speculation about Jesus impulses
Yes, but its just so base. Its not that Jesus couldnt do whatever He wanted....its the whole idea of duty to Father and mission in life sorta thing.
I have no problem with Jesus being fully human and having human impulses. I would just like to think that if anyone could resist, Jesus would be able to do so.
Perhaps He had nocturnal emissions......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Brian, posted 10-30-2007 8:34 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Brian, posted 10-30-2007 12:31 PM Phat has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 212 of 300 (431309)
10-30-2007 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
10-30-2007 10:36 AM


Re: Speculation about Jesus impulses
He wanted....its the whole idea of duty to Father and mission in life sorta thing.
Yes, but when did His mission start?
We know nothing about Jesus between the ages of 12 and 30, so anything could have happened.
We know, as a boy, it was said that Jesus could get as angry as any other child could, except that there were more serious consequences. When Jesus got angry as a boy He killed other children, one of whom had only bumped into Him. So we see He misused His divine powers several times, so as a spotty teenager I can imagine Jesus having a grand old time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 10-30-2007 10:36 AM Phat has not replied

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 Message 213 by jar, posted 10-30-2007 2:22 PM Brian has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 213 of 300 (431326)
10-30-2007 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Brian
10-30-2007 12:31 PM


Not Fair Brian
Here you are pulling in extra-biblical sources on somebody who has not yet even read the Bible.
No Fair!

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Brian, posted 10-30-2007 12:31 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Brian, posted 10-30-2007 2:29 PM jar has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 214 of 300 (431331)
10-30-2007 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by jar
10-30-2007 2:22 PM


Re: Not Fair Brian
Life's not fair!
But at least he now knows the child Jesus was not to be messed with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 10-30-2007 2:22 PM jar has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 215 of 300 (431338)
10-30-2007 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by nator
10-30-2007 7:44 AM


Re: I'll try you
Schraf writes:
So, is there any way to tell the difference between a genuine spiritual experience with God, a real one that you are led to believe is from god but is from the Devil or a demon, and an imagined one?
The best way to tell is to ask yourself whether the quality of your knowing is at the max possible. For example: are you as sure of that fact as you are of the fact of your own existance. If you are then it is as real as can be. For you.
The difference between "real" and "imagined" is like the difference between dreaming you are flying and actually flying when you are awake such that you can demonstrate this ability to others in some manner.
We might define real as being what a person perceives reality to be. You, for example, would hold reality to be all that is empirically demonstrable (although I'm sure you make an exception for your thoughts which are not empirically demonstrable but might well be considered by you to be real occurances). You have already accepted that what you hold reality to be might not be reality - you might be a brain in a jar and all your empirically demonstrable flying is as real as your dreamtime flying.
Given all that, I can't see how empirical demonstrability assists or hinders evaluation of whether an (spiritual) experience is real or not. Unless of course you are an empiricist who has forgotten empiricism is but a philosophy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by nator, posted 10-30-2007 7:44 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by LinearAq, posted 10-30-2007 3:56 PM iano has replied
 Message 227 by nator, posted 10-30-2007 8:05 PM iano has replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 216 of 300 (431352)
10-30-2007 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by iano
10-29-2007 9:55 AM


What in the world are you trying to say?!!!
iano writes:
- God attempting to draw a person to salvation. He is attempting to convince them of something. The person can resist this - unto damnation even. There is no need that the person be aware it is God attempting to convince them.
How can you resist something that you are not even aware of?
further, iano writes:
- A person at the point of salvation and passing through it. From being a lost person to being a found person. Call it a change of state.
- God takes up residence within the person. This includes demonstrating his existance to the person to their complete satisfaction. If not Schrafs
and iano writes:
That God attempts to save a person doesn't mean a person must be saved. Permission to resist and finally refuse is a God-given right. We are people - not robots.
...Because the set up of things is such that a person is permitted to escape being convinced. Why does God do this? Well, he gave man will and permits it exercised...
...The direct post-salvation evidence of Gods existance although convincing, is not empirical. It is detectable only by those who have been saved and have the necessary "sensory" equipment. Everyone who is saved see's, everyone who is not doesn't. You are not dealing with some homongenous population
In summary: God gave you free will to resist accepting convincing evidence of His existance but that evidence is not manifested to you until you have already given up your free will and become His servant.
Why does Jesus choose to remain hidden unless we already believe in Him?
Your argument about Jesus taking away our free will if He provided convincing evidence of His existance does not hold water biblically. Satan saw God and Jesus face to face, yet he chose to rebel.
I can see that the leader of IRAN exists yet I choose to not serve him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by iano, posted 10-29-2007 9:55 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 217 of 300 (431354)
10-30-2007 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by iano
10-30-2007 2:53 PM


Re: I'll try you
iano writes:
Given all that, I can't see how empirical demonstrability assists or hinders evaluation of whether an (spiritual) experience is real or not.
I believe this was the crux of the questioning. If you can't demonstrate that it was real, how can you know it was?
Jesus states rather emphatically that you should make disciples of all nations (people). What method does He expect you, his disciple, to use to convince others that He is really their savior?
Tell you what...raise a couple of dead people...that might lend credence to your belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 2:53 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 5:07 PM LinearAq has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 218 of 300 (431357)
10-30-2007 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by LinearAq
10-30-2007 3:56 PM


Re: I'll try you
I believe this was the crux of the questioning. If you can't demonstrate that it was real, how can you know it was?
I don't think you've followed the discussion. Demonstrating something doesn't mean it is really real. "You" could be a character in some alien kids playstation game and all your "demonstration" is so much button pushing by the kid.
What we individually decide is the extent of reality may or may not be the extent of it.
Jesus states rather emphatically that you should make disciples of all nations (people). What method does He expect you, his disciple, to use to convince others that He is really their savior?
The method doesn't involve convincing others. My job is simply to act as a messenger boy - to deliver the gospel message to people. It is the work of God, specifically the Holy Spirit to activate that in the attempt to convince them. Consider the gospel to be a tool. I bring it to the site - the Holy Spirit works it.
Tell you what...raise a couple of dead people...that might lend credence to your belief.
If Jesus' miracles had not necessarily that effect I doubt this would be the case. It is not my concern that you find my beliefs credible. My concern is that you read what I write so that you are exposed to (aspects of) the gospel.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by LinearAq, posted 10-30-2007 3:56 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by jar, posted 10-30-2007 5:26 PM iano has not replied
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 10-30-2007 5:38 PM iano has not replied
 Message 229 by LinearAq, posted 10-30-2007 8:52 PM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 219 of 300 (431359)
10-30-2007 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by iano
10-30-2007 5:07 PM


Re: I'll try you
It is the work of God, specifically the Holy Spirit to activate that in the attempt to convince them.
But that tells us nothing.
The question is, "How do you tell that it is God (or in your current example the Holy Spirit) that is trying to convince them? What would distinguish the Holy Spirit from some Demiurge?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 5:07 PM iano has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 220 of 300 (431360)
10-30-2007 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by iano
10-30-2007 5:07 PM


Re: I'll try you
iano writes:
Consider the gospel to be a tool. I bring it to the site - the Holy Spirit works it.
So you're the Holy Spirit's caddy?
Wouldn't it make more sense for His protege to demonstrate the product?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 5:07 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 221 of 300 (431361)
10-30-2007 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by LinearAq
10-30-2007 3:43 PM


Re: What in the world are you trying to say?!!!
How can you resist something that you are not even aware of?
Suppose for a moment that the voice you call your conscience is Gods voice. Sounds like your own perhaps...
The Bible says that man suppresses the truth revealed by conscience and seeing as all truth comes from God..
That's how.
In summary: God gave you free will to resist accepting convincing evidence of His existance but that evidence is not manifested to you until you have already given up your free will and become His servant.
It's not about resisting convincing evidence as to his existance. Convincing evidence of his existance comes post-salvation, after surrender has already been declared by you. Pre-salvation, when you are still fighting, the resisting that goes on is resisting being convinced of something else that God is trying to convince you of. What he is trying to convince you of is NOT that you believe he exists. He is trying to convince you that you have a problem requiring the existance of God to solve.
You don't have to believe in the existance of God to believe that you need God to exist. If you are convinced (by God) that you have a huge problem that would take the existance of God to resolve then you have arrived at the point of salvation.
btw: Man doesn't have free will. Or at least he didn't have it after he chose to eat a certain fruit. But that's another story.)
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by LinearAq, posted 10-30-2007 3:43 PM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Rahvin, posted 10-30-2007 7:12 PM iano has replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 222 of 300 (431362)
10-30-2007 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Phat
10-30-2007 6:58 AM


Re: Speculation about Jesus impulses
quote:
...Jesus did remain celibate all his life and that his form of release was sublimated from the physical to the spiritual.
when I was a teenager I used to 'sublimate' on a daily basis.
Good for the tension, terrible for the bedsheets!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 10-30-2007 6:58 AM Phat has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 223 of 300 (431369)
10-30-2007 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by iano
10-30-2007 5:41 PM


Re: What in the world are you trying to say?!!!
btw: Man doesn't have free will. Or at least he didn't have it after he chose to eat a certain fruit. But that's another story.)
If man has no free will, that means that God created most people who have ever existed specifically for the purpose of throwing them in Hell for eternal torture. Predestination means that literally everything, from natural disasters to the Holocaust to individual atrocities are entirely God's fault, because he specifically caused it all to happen.
It means your god is a petty, sadistic, evil fuck.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 5:41 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 225 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 7:59 PM Rahvin has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 224 of 300 (431371)
10-30-2007 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Rahvin
10-30-2007 7:12 PM


Re: What in the world are you trying to say?!!!
Rahvin writes:
If man has no free will, that means that God created most people who have ever existed specifically for the purpose of throwing them in Hell for eternal torture.
There is biblical support for view somewhere in Romans 9, of course there is also biblical support for the contrary view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Rahvin, posted 10-30-2007 7:12 PM Rahvin has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 225 of 300 (431378)
10-30-2007 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Rahvin
10-30-2007 7:12 PM


Re: What in the world are you trying to say?!!!
If man has no free will, that means that God created most people who have ever existed specifically for the purpose of throwing them in Hell for eternal torture. Predestination means that literally everything, from natural disasters to the Holocaust to individual atrocities are entirely God's fault, because he specifically caused it all to happen. It means your god is a petty, sadistic, evil fuck.
I'm not doing back-of-a-cornflakes-box theology today. Sorry.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Brian, posted 10-30-2007 8:02 PM iano has not replied
 Message 265 by Equinox, posted 11-05-2007 1:23 PM iano has not replied

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