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Author Topic:   What specific evidence would people require to believe in God's existence?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 151 of 222 (416815)
08-18-2007 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by georgeculolias
08-18-2007 12:30 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
georgeculolias
I've found he has helped me, and to me the proof of his existence is in the results of how I choose to live my life
Now you have both my curiousity and your own declaration to satisfy. How is the results of how you live your life proof of God's existence to you?

"The tragedy of life is not so much what men suffer, but rather what they miss."
Thomas Carlyle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by georgeculolias, posted 08-18-2007 12:30 AM georgeculolias has replied

Replies to this message:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 152 of 222 (416816)
08-18-2007 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by georgeculolias
08-18-2007 12:30 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
George writes:
If there was "ironclad proof" how is there choice and freewill?
Did Adam and Eve have *ironclad* proof of God's existence.. Yes... No?
Did they have free-will and choice?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by georgeculolias, posted 08-18-2007 12:30 AM georgeculolias has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by georgeculolias, posted 08-18-2007 12:48 AM iceage has replied

  
georgeculolias
Junior Member (Idle past 6087 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 153 of 222 (416817)
08-18-2007 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by iceage
08-18-2007 12:43 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
Do you believe that Adam and Eve stuff? I don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by iceage, posted 08-18-2007 12:43 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by iceage, posted 08-18-2007 1:02 AM georgeculolias has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 154 of 222 (416818)
08-18-2007 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by georgeculolias
08-18-2007 12:48 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
OK how about Judas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by georgeculolias, posted 08-18-2007 12:48 AM georgeculolias has replied

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georgeculolias
Junior Member (Idle past 6087 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 155 of 222 (416819)
08-18-2007 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by sidelined
08-18-2007 12:39 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
I opened my mind to the possibility of there being a God. He has proven himself to me when I asked him to. The proof would never convince anyone except me, as there always has to be choice and freewill. Doubt always is there telling me, "that doesn't mean anything."
But faith tells a different story and as I've listened to faith's voice, my life has improved. I've changed into someone I like better than I did before. Now I can I hear the quiet reassuring voice of faith when I couldn't before I opened my mind to the possibility of God? And my life has improved when I listened to it instead of listening to doubt.

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georgeculolias
Junior Member (Idle past 6087 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 156 of 222 (416820)
08-18-2007 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by iceage
08-18-2007 1:02 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
I have no opinion on any of the Christ story. I only know what worked for me.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 157 of 222 (416822)
08-18-2007 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by georgeculolias
08-18-2007 12:30 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
georgeculolias writes:
Let’s say it was somehow proven that God exists to a doubter, that doesn't want to believe. Now he had better do what God says or else.
Or else what? Only a very petty god would punish somebody who chose not to toe the party line.
So why wouldn't a benevolent, reasonable God give us ironclad proof of His existence and let us thumb our noses at Him if we so choose?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by georgeculolias, posted 08-18-2007 12:30 AM georgeculolias has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by pbee, posted 08-18-2007 2:23 AM ringo has replied
 Message 161 by georgeculolias, posted 08-18-2007 11:52 AM ringo has replied

  
pbee
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 158 of 222 (416829)
08-18-2007 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by iceage
08-18-2007 12:12 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
quote:
Why do you feel it is necessary or good for God to hide in the shadows and require "faith" in believing all sorts of extraordinary unbelievable stuff without "ironclad" evidence? Sounds like a great way to have a lot of confused, conflicting and disparate religious ideologies ... oh wait that is just what we have.
"With a man there is nothing better than that he should... see good because of his hard work"
God is a worker. Perhaps we have not thought of him in that way, but that is how he first introduces himself in the Bible. The Genesis account opens with Gos creating the heavens and the earth. Think of the array of roles that God assumed when he thus started creating; designer, organizer, engineer, artist, materials specialist, project developer, chemist, biologist, zoologist, programmer, linguist, to name just a few.
This life in imitation of Jesus calls for faith. It work and it demands diligence and skill. It calls for self-sacrifice, a willingness to share of what is one's own. However, the diligent worker finds joy in this work of God, as the psalmist declared: "To do your will, O my God, I have delighted." To his listeners, Jesus said "If you know these things, happy you are if you do them." The man who does not shrink back from the hard work of being a Christian will come in line for the splendid and ultimate reward”eternal life.
In order for us to express full appreciation and gain lasting life, we must come to know him. God has demonstrated his loving concern by giving us his inspired Word, the Bible. Paul wrote "Now he that plants and he that waters are one, but each person will receive his own reward according to his own labor."
Well go figure, eternal life will not fall on our laps nor will it come to flamboyant ones saying "Let God show himself! so that we don't go out looking."
Edited by pbee, : No reason given.
Edited by pbee, : typo's

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 Message 149 by iceage, posted 08-18-2007 12:12 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
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pbee
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 159 of 222 (416831)
08-18-2007 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by ringo
08-18-2007 1:12 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
quote:
So why wouldn't a benevolent, reasonable God give us ironclad proof of His existence and let us thumb our noses at Him if we so choose?
The accountability accompanied with absolute knowledge of God would strip humans of any possibility for change. ex; by divine law, no man shall betray God and live. Under the current arrangement, we have the capacity to honestly claim ignorance until the day we die. Unless a man is carrying a sin against the holy spirit or dies by the hand of God, his sins will be forgotten in death.
So you see, you can thumb your nose at God all you like, and you will continue to walk the earth. Since we start life with the notion that we will grow old and die, there are no losses when our time has come to pass.
Also notable, is that the scriptures say that there will be no fence sitters on the great day of God. Anyone facing destruction by the hand of God under that moment will be wicked in his heart and deserving of the consequences. - So, there will be no innocent by-standers either.
Edited by pbee, : No reason given.

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 Message 157 by ringo, posted 08-18-2007 1:12 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 08-18-2007 2:41 AM pbee has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 160 of 222 (416833)
08-18-2007 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by pbee
08-18-2007 2:23 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
pbee writes:
The accountability accompanied with absolute knowledge of God would strip humans of any possibility for change.
But if God is omnipotent and benevolent, there's no need for any accountability at all.
Anyone facing destruction by the hand of God under that moment will be wicked in his heart and deserving of the consequences. - So, there will be no innocent by-standers either.
You're describing a petty tyrant, neither omnipotent (able to forgive) nor benevolent (willing to forgive).

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by pbee, posted 08-18-2007 2:23 AM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by pbee, posted 08-18-2007 11:06 PM ringo has replied
 Message 166 by pbee, posted 08-19-2007 12:19 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
georgeculolias
Junior Member (Idle past 6087 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 161 of 222 (416896)
08-18-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by ringo
08-18-2007 1:12 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
God proving his existence to the doubters would only prove that his own children couldn't find their own God given nature without indisputable proof. So the proof would prove he and his children are weak. We are not weak and neither is he, so there can be no proof that will EVER satisfy a doubter. But the choice of finding our God given nature is open to everyone that seeks for it, as I have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by ringo, posted 08-18-2007 1:12 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by ringo, posted 08-18-2007 12:08 PM georgeculolias has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 162 of 222 (416901)
08-18-2007 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by georgeculolias
08-18-2007 11:52 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
georgeculolias writes:
God proving his existence to the doubters would only prove that his own children couldn't find their own God given nature without indisputable proof.
That doesn't follow at all. A father makes a special effort to find the child who is lost. That's not a negative reflection on the ones who aren't lost, nor does it suggest that the father is "weak".
We are not weak and neither is he, so there can be no proof that will EVER satisfy a doubter.
That doesn't follow either. If the father isn't weak, he can find his lost child.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by georgeculolias, posted 08-18-2007 11:52 AM georgeculolias has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by georgeculolias, posted 08-18-2007 1:20 PM ringo has replied

  
georgeculolias
Junior Member (Idle past 6087 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 163 of 222 (416913)
08-18-2007 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by ringo
08-18-2007 12:08 PM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
God HAS made a special effort to let his children find their God given nature and him. He has given us his voice of faith to lead back to him in time. God hasn't lost us, his children have lost him and decided of their own freewill to be afraid of their God given nature. That is our choice and our right as freewill beings but because of the way we are acting being against our God given nature it makes us unhappy and out of touch with God. That's why we have lost him. I've found as I try to find out what my nature is and follow it, I've been happier.
I don't understand why you don't think it follows, God proving his existence to the doubters would only prove that his own children couldn't find their own God given nature without indisputable proof. It makes perfect sense to me, but we can agree to disagree and I’ll leave it there.

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 Message 162 by ringo, posted 08-18-2007 12:08 PM ringo has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 164 of 222 (416917)
08-18-2007 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by georgeculolias
08-18-2007 1:20 PM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
georgeculolias writes:
God hasn't lost us, his children have lost him and decided of their own freewill to be afraid of their God given nature.
Who lost whom is irrelevant. A father goes out to find the lost child. A good shepherd leaves the ninety-nine and goes out to find the lost one.
I don't understand why you don't think it follows, God proving his existence to the doubters would only prove that his own children couldn't find their own God given nature without indisputable proof.
The doubters are His children too. Why would God favour the children who are safe at home over those who need Him more? Why would putting His efforts where they are needed most diminish His devotion to those who need Him less?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by georgeculolias, posted 08-18-2007 1:20 PM georgeculolias has not replied

  
pbee
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 165 of 222 (416988)
08-18-2007 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by ringo
08-18-2007 2:41 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
quote:
But if God is omnipotent and benevolent, there's no need for any accountability at all.
Omnipotent, Omniscient, omnipresent!
At what point did God lend Himself to such rickety discrimination?
This is nothing more than sore attempts to retrofit human reasoning to Gods absolute power.
At what point did God suddenly become a push-over?
Are we still discussing God the Almighty? The sovereign ruler of the universe, and the Creator of all things? He alone has absolute unlimited freedom. All others must move and act within there given abilities and subject themselves to his universal laws. When we consider; gravity, the laws of governing reactions, orbiting stars, growth, morality, the rights and actions of others that influence one’s freedom. The freedom of all of God’s creatures now becomes a relative freedom.
We have many example of God's benevolence. The fact alone that God made a covenant with imperfect man to attain eternal life shows that God is indeed benevolent. It is noteworthy however, that God does not cater to those calling in arrogance and self assured desires.
Jesus once posed the question saying "Indeed, which father is there among you who, if his son asks for a fish, will perhaps hand him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he also asks for an egg, will hand him a scorpion?" Jesus went on to say "Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!"
With this example, Jesus revealed how God feels about those who turn to him in prayer. Unlike a man which Jesus illustrated was reluctant to respond to a call for help, God is like a caring human parent, who is eager to respond to a request from his child. Jesus further reveals God’s willing disposition toward us by reasoning from the lesser to the greater. He says that if a human father, *though wicked, because of inherited sin, gives a good gift to his son, how much more so can we expect that our heavenly Father, being kind-hearted, give holy spirit to his worshipers?
We can be confident that when His worshipers ask for holy spirit, God is more than willing to offer them help. When we turn to him in prayer again and again, God will never say "Quit making me trouble. The door has already been locked!" On the contrary!, Jesus said "Keep on asking, and it will be given, keep on seeking, and you will find, keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you."
quote:
You're describing a petty tyrant, neither omnipotent (able to forgive) nor benevolent (willing to forgive).
tyr·an·ny
  • Arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority.
  • The government or rule of a tyrant or absolute ruler.
  • A state ruled by a tyrant or absolute ruler.
  • Oppressive or unjustly severe government on the part of any ruler.
  • Undue severity or harshness.
  • A tyrannical act or proceeding., as it were, does not come with kindness.
  • There is a clear distinction between freedom and bondage. Freedom within God-given limitations brings happiness; bondage to creatures, to imperfection, to weaknesses, or to wrong ideologies brings oppression and unhappiness. Freedom is also to be differentiated from self-determination, that is, ignoring God’s laws and determining for oneself what is right and what is wrong. Such paths disrupt the rights of others, as can be seen from the effects of the independent, self-willed spirit introduced to Adam and Eve by the Serpent in Eden. True freedom is bounded by law, God’s law, which allows full expression of the individual in a proper, upbuilding, and beneficial way, and which recognizes the rights of others, contributing to happiness for all.
    It should come as no surprise however, that for the illegitimates of our times, God also becomes the bearer of calamity. The irony of it all, is that this exact same behavior has been recorded long before this topic ever came to be. It is so alarmingly similar, that it drives one to question if we are truly striking any ground here at all! - The first case of such behavior took place in Heaven when Satan challenged the rightfulness and righteousness of Gods sovereignty.
    He intimated that God was unrightfully dealing with his human creations; he also declared that God was a liar! in saying that Eve would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Additionally... Satan made her believe that she would be free and independent of God! and even becoming like God! - By this means, this now evil spirit raised himself higher than God in Eve’s eyes, and Satan became her god, even though Eve, at the time, apparently did not know the identity of the one misleading her. By his action, he brought man and woman under his leadership and control, standing up in opposition to his Creator.
    Such feeble attempts to discredit God bear an alarming similarity to the originator of sin himself! It is so uncanny, that it really strikes a chord. If God(Creation and the fall of man) is all simple fiction, then why is it that we somehow personify those exact implications of the scriptures to this very day?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by ringo, posted 08-18-2007 2:41 AM ringo has replied

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