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Author Topic:   The Bible: Literal or Figurative
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 40 (130112)
08-03-2004 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mission for Truth
06-20-2004 5:39 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
quote:
Originally posted by Mission for Truth
Such as I understand, certain credibilities become hazy when viewed with a figurative mental pretense. But, that is my question, DO we take it as figurative? Or not? And if so, does it cause problems?
Has this thread strayed from the intent of the OP already? I hope Mission for Truth will correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that the question being asked is: If the bible is taken figuratively instead of literally, how does this effect modern Christian doctrine?
For instance: If the Adam and Eve story is figurative, then (regardless of any argument that it "still contains God's truth"), the doctrine of original sin is immediately called into question.
Obvious parables and certain other stories in the bible can certainly be taken in a figurative sense. However, if the tenets of Christian doctrine are to be taken seriously and literally, huge portions of the biblical text must be taken to be literal as well.
Just my 2 cents,
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mission for Truth, posted 06-20-2004 5:39 PM Mission for Truth has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 40 (130114)
08-03-2004 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Amlodhi
08-03-2004 6:44 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
For instance: If the Adam and Eve story is figurative, then (regardless of any argument that it "still contains God's truth"), the doctrine of original sin is immediately called into question.
I don't know of any Christian Dogma, including Roman Catholicism that holds Original Sin as a condition of faith.
There is nothing that I know of in Christian Dogma that requires ANY of the Bible to be taken literally other than the existance of GOD and the life and mission of Jesus.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Amlodhi, posted 08-03-2004 6:44 PM Amlodhi has not replied

Replies to this message:
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paisano
Member (Idle past 6422 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 18 of 40 (130120)
08-03-2004 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Amlodhi
08-03-2004 6:44 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
For instance: If the Adam and Eve story is figurative, then (regardless of any argument that it "still contains God's truth"), the doctrine of original sin is immediately called into question.
Depends on what precisely is meant by "original sin". In Catholic theology, original sin refers to a loss of sanctifying grace that humans experienced at some point, nothing more than that. It certainly does NOT have anything to do with physical death. That is a Protestant notion.
I think that notion is one of the chief reasons Protestants of literalist bent have such a problem with evolution, whereas Catholicism does not really see it as problematic.

This message is a reply to:
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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 40 (130186)
08-03-2004 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
08-03-2004 6:55 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
If there wasnt a literal fall, in a literal place, by a literal man. Then what fall are we talking about? Jesus shouldnt even have a reason to save mankind. Sin is the reason why we see death, bloodshed, disease and a cursed world. Before this, God made a perfect world. Gods plan is to save mankind from the judgement on sin through Christ. Now Jar you tell me if this isnt an important aspect of the faith?

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 Message 17 by jar, posted 08-03-2004 6:55 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 40 (130190)
08-03-2004 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by almeyda
08-03-2004 11:11 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
Now Jar you tell me if this isnt an important aspect of the faith?
Nope. It most certainly is not very important at all. That is why almost every Christian sect, except for the few Fundamentalist and Literalist cults, have dropped the concept of Original Sin.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Amlodhi, posted 08-04-2004 2:09 AM jar has replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 40 (130225)
08-04-2004 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
08-03-2004 11:29 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
quote:
Originally posted by jar
Nope. It most certainly is not very important at all.
Hi jar,
Most interesting. I think this is pointing in the right direction now. A few questions come immediately to mind then, for example:
"Then why did Jesus need to be born of a virgin?"
Could be an interesting discussion. But not one for my sleep deprived mind.
Later,
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 08-03-2004 11:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 08-04-2004 1:32 PM Amlodhi has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 40 (130309)
08-04-2004 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by almeyda
08-03-2004 11:11 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
quote:
If there wasnt a literal fall, in a literal place, by a literal man. Then what fall are we talking about? Jesus shouldnt even have a reason to save mankind.
Jesus said that "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Nowhere does this require a literal place, event, or human. The fact is that we all sin and therefore need saving.
quote:
Sin is the reason why we see death, bloodshed, disease and a cursed world.
Or it may have always been that way. Do you have evidence of what the world looked like before the "curse"? Bloodshed is a common occurence throughout the animal world, such as carnivores catching prey. Disease can be found in every creature, human and non-human. A "cursed world" explains nothing, since we do not have a non-cursed world to compare it to.
quote:
Before this, God made a perfect world.
Actualy, I think God said "It was good" not perfect. Right now, I look out at the world and think "It looks good", therefore no change has occured.
quote:
Gods plan is to save mankind from the judgement on sin through Christ.
And that plan is not changed if Genesis is figurative instead of literal.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 40 (130312)
08-04-2004 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Amlodhi
08-04-2004 2:09 AM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
Amlodhi asks:
"Then why did Jesus need to be born of a virgin?"
That is part of the divinity of Jesus. The virgin birth (not unusual from a mythological point of view) helps establish that Jesus was more than simply a prophet. For Christians, that IS one of the core beliefs. We believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Amlodhi, posted 08-04-2004 2:09 AM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by lfen, posted 08-04-2004 2:07 PM jar has replied
 Message 28 by Amlodhi, posted 08-04-2004 11:16 PM jar has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 24 of 40 (130325)
08-04-2004 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
08-04-2004 1:32 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
quote:
. The virgin birth (not unusual from a mythological point of view) helps establish that Jesus was more than simply a prophet. For Christians, that IS one of the core beliefs.
Jar,
That statement is part of the Nicene Creed, right. I've read that the original prophecy used a term that could as easily be interpreted as meaning "a young woman". Also read many scholars who dispute that Isiah was referring to a Jesus but rather to someone in his own time.
Virgin births were a feature of many mythologies but didn't seem to be part of the Jewish view. I think it was the influence of paganism, gentiles whatever. I certainly don't thint it's scripturally necessary.
Do you believe in the virgin birth? Do you believe some one could be considered a christian who didn't believe in it?
Sometime during my high school years I stopped being a christian when I read through the Nicene creed and realised I could not honestly say I believed most of the stuff in it, and rather than try to come up with some scientifically "correct" Christianity I just dropped the whole thing.
peace,
lfen

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 Message 23 by jar, posted 08-04-2004 1:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 08-04-2004 3:22 PM lfen has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 40 (130351)
08-04-2004 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by lfen
08-04-2004 2:07 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
Do you believe in the virgin birth? Do you believe some one could be considered a christian who didn't believe in it?
Personally? No, I do subscribe to the Nicene Creed and consider it as the statement of my core beliefs.
But there are many that also agree with various other interpretations of what the actaul words meant, whether virgin, young girl or some other variation. The actual words in the Creed are "Born of the Virgin Mary". That can be read either as a statement of her condition, or as a title of identification.
The nature of Jesus has always been a contentious issue within Christianity. The main points disputed are:
  • Sabellianism & Docetism: that Christ was Christ only. He just seemed to us to have a human body.
  • Monophysitism: that Jesus Christ is the joining of two seperate natures, the eternal Legos Christ and the human Jesus that happened at incarnation.
  • Nestorianism: that viewed him as two natures that remained seperate thoughout his life.
  • Apollinarianism: where Jesus has a human mind and soul but a divine mind.
  • Adoptionism: where Jesus is a normal human that is adopted by GOD.
  • Arianism: where Jesus Christ is a special creation by GOD for man's salvation (suprisingly, this led to some of the most contentious fighting and has always been considered one of the greatest of heresies).
  • Socianism: which is similar to Arianism and considers Jesus to simply be an extraordinary individual.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by lfen, posted 08-04-2004 2:07 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 26 of 40 (130468)
08-04-2004 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
08-04-2004 3:22 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
Jar,
Weren't all those beliefs declared heresy? That is most christians would consider them heretics.
lfen

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 Message 25 by jar, posted 08-04-2004 3:22 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 40 (130481)
08-04-2004 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by lfen
08-04-2004 8:20 PM


Heresies
Most of them, certainly. Arianism was considered the most serious of them but held out for a long time under the Goths and the churches founded under Gothic influence.
Monophysitism is still pretty common in some of the middle eastern churches and Egypt. You can still find traces of Socianism in the Jehova's Witnesses and Unitarians.
There were many other heresies that revolved around features other than the nature of Jesus Christ. For example, Pelagianism which grew up in Britian, Gaul and Ireland is still very prevelant today. It is basically the difference between the modern mainstream Christain Church and some of the Evangelical Sects.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 40 (130520)
08-04-2004 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
08-04-2004 1:32 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
quote:
jar replies:
That is part of the divinity of Jesus.
OK. I can accept that.
What about the genealogies then, are they to be taken figuratively also? There was no Cain? No Abel? Noah? When would you say that real people begin to be described?
Do understand, jar, I'm not baiting you. I have no emotional investment in this. I am pure skeptic. This is purely of academic interest to me, but very interesting, nonetheless.
namaste'
Amlodhi

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 Message 23 by jar, posted 08-04-2004 1:32 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 40 (130527)
08-04-2004 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Amlodhi
08-04-2004 11:16 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
The geneologies are certainly mostly fiction. Their ages are pure fiction.
The most likely explaination for Cain and Abel is a representation of the conflict between the Nomad and more settled Farmer. Many of the others may point towards actual individuals, but exactly what the relationship was is most likely something we'll never know.
The Noah story, Flood and Ark are absolutely figurative. Even if some powerful or influencial person named Noah lived, the flood and ark simply never happened.
edited to fix spelling:
This message has been edited by jar, 08-04-2004 10:25 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Amlodhi, posted 08-04-2004 11:16 PM Amlodhi has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 750 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 30 of 40 (130547)
08-05-2004 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
08-04-2004 11:25 PM


Re: Can the Bible be Figurative?
The geneologies are certainly mostly fiction. Their ages are pure fiction.
Now can you prove that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 08-04-2004 11:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 33 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 8:20 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
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