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Author Topic:   RESURRECTION : THE EVIDENCE (+ Apostolic Martyrdom considerations)
neil88
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 233 (93825)
03-22-2004 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Cold Foreign Object
03-09-2004 10:28 PM


Quote:
I never argue by website linkage - any fool can create a web page.
Go to any library for books about the apostles, or any bookstore, or I guess you can search your subject at http://www.capstonebooks.com
Where is the logic in this? Yes, any fool can create a web page. Similarly any fool can write a book!
I have read erroneous comments in recent newspapers and books. Why would you accept as "gospel" ( pardon the pun ) a collection of writings written 2,000 years ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-09-2004 10:28 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 182 of 233 (93834)
03-22-2004 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Cold Foreign Object
03-21-2004 8:30 PM


Hi WT, I will reply to your previous post later tonight.
However:
Jesus died on the cross.
How do you know this? How do you actually know for certain that he died on a cross? Remember, nothing in history is ever proven, you agreed with this in an earlier post.
If the gospel writers are knowingly myth-making then why have Him die so early ? This doesn't make sense or help their story.
He had to die before 6-0-clock because no one would have been able to take him off the cross, or dress the corpse, as it would be the Sabbath.
Jesus did not die on Friday - He died on Wednesday because the Passover was a High Day Sabbath.
Good grief, two thousand years of Christian tradition changed in a sentence, a sentence that show how ignorant of scripture you actually are.
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
So Jesus died on Wednesday, and he was in the tomb for three days, so he rose on Friday morning, where in scripture do you find support for this?
Also, how do you explain Luke 24:1?
On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb
The first day of the week is Sunday, so it is impossible for there to be three days between Wednesday and Sunday, unless you know differently.
Luke 24:21 has the disciples verifying this.
but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place
Luke 23:56 explicity refers to the weekly Sabbath.
Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.
The verse specifically refers to the Sabbath, not 'a'Sabbath. This supports verse 54's claims.
Perhaps you have a way to harmonise this 'High Sabbath' view, and the Holy Scriptures?
Brian.
[This message has been edited by Brian, 03-22-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-21-2004 8:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-22-2004 9:44 PM Brian has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 183 of 233 (93990)
03-22-2004 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Brian
03-22-2004 10:32 AM


Colossians 2:17 has Paul interpreting the feast days of the O.T.
Referring to these feasts, Paul says they were a "shadow of things
to come"...."but the substance casting the shadow was Christ".
The 7 feast days of the O.T. are also prophetic symbols of typology
that perfectly identify and point to Jesus of Nazareth. In the O.T. "feast days" means "set times", these set times will literaly show off God's ability to control history.
For example; the slain passover lamb had to be firstborn and without spot or blemish. Jesus was the first born of God and sinless (without spot and blemish).
Jesus HAD to be crucified on the Passover OR God's typology of Christ fulfilling the feast of Passover would of been ruined.
I know you dismiss Satan, but we evangelicals do not. He is as real as Jesus and I bring him up with one purpose. Contrary to traditional fundementalist nonsense that has Satan gloating over Christ crucified - Satan did everything in his power to prevent the crucifixion.
Satan entered into Judas with the single intent of trying to get Jesus locked away in some jail so the prophecy of Him fulfilling the set time of Passover be ruined. All Satan wanted was to ruin the passover lamb (Jesus) from being offered on Passover and jail was his move to prevent that from happening.
The gospels are clear : Jesus invoked Jonah, that as he was three days and three nights in the whales belly so would Jesus be dead three days and three nights THEN raise according to the promise of the Father.
Jesus was crucified in 33 AD and in that year Passover was on Wednesday. Passover begins the Jewish religious new year and Passover is always on the 14th. This means Passover will fall on each day of the week every 7 years.
However, Passover is also the Sabbath, it is called a "High Day Sabbath".
Jesus was crucified on the Passover (Wednesday) which is also a Sabbath, at sundown Wednesday began Unleavened Bread and it lasted seven days from the end of Passover (sundown Wednesday).
The normal Sabbath began at sundown Friday and ended at sundown Saturday. Sundown Saturday begins the first day of the week (Sunday), which also begins the set time of Firstfruits.
Jesus HAD to be removed from the cross and entombed by Wednesday sundown for Him to rise at sundown Saturday to fulfill Firstfruits - Jesus being the firstfruits of the Spirit raised to immortal life, and those that are "in Christ" have the same promise when they die.
Wednesday sundown to Thursday sundown 1 DAY (24 hour period)
Thursday sundown to Friday sundown 2nd DAY (24 hour period)
Friday sundown to Saturday sundown 3rd DAY (24 hour period)
There is the 72 hours of Jonah prophesied.
The Church and its Babylonian traditions are just plain wrong. The Pope and his theologians know this.
When Saturday sundown arrived - RESURRECTION on the first day of the week which began Sunday and Firstfruits. 50 days after Firstfruits ended (Monday sundown) came Pentecost which is the day the Church was born.
Trumpets is when the 2nd coming will happen. Whatever year Jesus returns - He will fulfill the feast/set time of Trumpets, which on our calendar comes in September. Jesus will rapture the church and 10 days later the set time of Atonement will come, which begins the Great Tribulation for those who rejected Christ.
Source : Dr. Gene Scott, teaching VF-514
http://www.drgenescott.com/thearchives.htm
then click "subject" then click "prophecy" then scroll to VF-514.
[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 03-22-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Brian, posted 03-22-2004 10:32 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by PaulK, posted 03-23-2004 3:38 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 188 by Brian, posted 03-23-2004 9:13 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 184 of 233 (93996)
03-22-2004 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by PaulK
03-19-2004 3:22 PM


Book : "Apostolic Fathers" translated by Goodspeed.
In the account of the martyrdom of Polycarp we have the Bishop of Smyrna away on church business. Yet, in another place far away, a young man named Germanicus dies by accident at a festival. This tragic accident was what triggered the crowd and Caesar's officials to seek out and find Polycarp.
When arrested Polycarp is given ample opportunity to deny Christ by verbally saying "Caesar is Lord". This was an available escape hatch - recanting.
The Great Fire may have been what triggered the round of persecutions that Peter and Paul suffered under. But, one thing is clear, they are imprisoned for being "atheists" ...."christians", and the opportunity to recant didn't suddenly begin with Polycarp who was anointed by John the Apostle.
The only thing that makes a christian a christian is the Resurrection.
"if Christ be not risen we are liars" says Paul (1Cor.15)
[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 03-22-2004]
[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 03-22-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by PaulK, posted 03-19-2004 3:22 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by PaulK, posted 03-23-2004 3:27 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 185 of 233 (93998)
03-22-2004 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Percy
03-17-2004 4:37 PM


Re: Let's Pick an Apostle
Yes you are correct (basically).
The point is that the legends and their common denominators agree that they died alone, horribly, for the report of the Resurrection.
Traditions say the same thing. Specifics vary but not the claim of martyrdom. In history this is called unverifiable historic FACT.
I also want to remind that atheist worldview just about eviscerates the eligibilty of this particular evidence from being evidence. I have already said this, and I said this in the context of why I didn't want to post the evidence in the first place.
I could go to science issues and identify where unseen things are accepted as fact because it is deduced from behavior. Yet the same criteria is arbitrarily tossed in an issue like the Resurrection. The impact of the apostles (unseen) is seen through later figures (like Polycarp) where we have more evidence.
New Testament times had every part of the world murdering those who offerred new religious/political doctrines. That is a tenable assumption based upon evidence of other figures suffering the same fate. On this basis it is no stretch to take the traditions/legends/accounts etc.etc. and to conclude that the apostles were martyred the way the sources claim.
[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 03-22-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Percy, posted 03-17-2004 4:37 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Percy, posted 03-23-2004 8:33 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 186 of 233 (94037)
03-23-2004 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Cold Foreign Object
03-22-2004 10:17 PM


So you have someone who was not an Apostle, not martyred for preaching the Resurrection and his chance to escape death did not require him to deny the Resurrection. So your evidence is inadequate, even as an example, on no less than 3 points without even considering whether the account is trustworthy.
I'll take that as proof that you did NOT have the evidence you claimed to have. Otherwise you could at the least have offered something about an apostle and where the Resurrection was the specific issue.
Now as to the relevance of Polycarp's martyrdom to that of Peter and Paul you neglect to mention the date. Polycarp's death has been identified as 155 AD - 90 years later. Indeed you imply that it is much closer in time. But 90 years is ample time for changes in policy - especially if Christians were being persecuted for being Christians rather than for their alleged involvement in the great fire. So even on that point you have shown no relevance to the death of ANY of the Apostles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-22-2004 10:17 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 187 of 233 (94038)
03-23-2004 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Cold Foreign Object
03-22-2004 9:44 PM


So your argument for a Wednesday is based on theological assumptions. And for that you say that three Gospels are wrong ?
(All the synoptics state that Jesus was arrested after the Passover meal)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-22-2004 9:44 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-23-2004 3:21 PM PaulK has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 188 of 233 (94103)
03-23-2004 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Cold Foreign Object
03-22-2004 9:44 PM


Say What?
Hi WT,
I want you to know that it personally makes no difference to my life when Jesus died or when the alleged resurrection took place, but I do feel a need to question things that I believe are incorrect, and I know that this Wednesday crucifixion is incorrect.
You say:
Wednesday sundown to Thursday sundown 1 DAY (24 hour period)
Thursday sundown to Friday sundown 2nd DAY (24 hour period)
Friday sundown to Saturday sundown 3rd DAY (24 hour period)
Dr. Scott’s calculations are (surprise surprise) incorrect.
Jesus, you have already agreed, had died and been placed in the tomb before the Sabbath began, so in regard to Scott’s theory, that would be Wednesday afternoon. Dr. Scott should not start counting from the Wednesday sundown, he has to start counting from when Jesus died, and that was Wednesday afternoon.
Scott seems unaware that the Jewish expression of ‘three days and nights’ is not three periods of 24 hours. ‘Day and night’ was a term used by Jews even when they meant only a part of that day.
Look at God’s Holy Word for an example:
Esther 4:16 Go, gather together all the Jews who are in Susa, and fast for me. Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maids will fast as you do. When this is done, I will go to the king, even though it is against the law. And if I perish, I perish."
Esther 5:1 On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king's hall. The king was sitting on his royal throne in the hall, facing the entrance.
Esther would not go to the king until three day and nights had passed, yet on the third day she stood in front of the king.
If Scott’s theory had been applied to Esther then it would have been the fourth day that she went to the King.
Scripture also says that Jesus had to be resurrected within three days, not after three days.
Mark 14:58 We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.
If Dr. Scott wants Jesus dead on a Wednesday afternoon, then Jesus rose from the dead on Friday.
Matthew 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
Matthew 27:63-64 "Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.' So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.
The tomb was to be made secure until the third day, not the fourth day, Jesus clearly had to rise from the dead on Sunday morning, and any part of a day includes that ‘day and night.’
There is the 72 hours of Jonah prophesied.
There is no mention of a 72 hour prophecy at all, this is a total fabrication.
The Church and its Babylonian traditions are just plain wrong. The Pope and his theologians know this.
I don’t think so. Dr. Scott is wrong again and again and again, almost everything Scott says is basically incorrect.
When Saturday sundown arrived - RESURRECTION on the first day of the week which began Sunday and Firstfruits.
When Saturday sundown arrived, and we are into another day and night, your mentor has had Jesus dead for five days and five nights. Jesus has been in the tomb from Wednesday afternoon until Sunday morning. Remember that the Jewish people called any part of a day ‘day and night’, therefore Jesus would have been severely decomposed come Sunday morning.
You really need to get yourself another mentor, one who actually knows what they are talking about because Dr. Scott is an imbecile.
What’s more, he is misleading you and the other people who think he has a clue what he is talking about, I wonder how many of his cigars and wine have been paid for by gullible Christians.
Here is an idea WT, why not read the Scriptures for yourself and come to your own conclusions under the guide of the Holy Spirit? You should give money grabbing psychos a body swerve.
Best Wishes
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-22-2004 9:44 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-23-2004 3:34 PM Brian has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 189 of 233 (94162)
03-23-2004 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by PaulK
03-23-2004 3:38 AM


Jesus Himself cited the SIGN (post 1) of the prophet Jonah....three days and three nights in the whales belly symbolizes His upcoming death (three days and three nights), thats 72 hours. What is so difficult to understand about that ?
IF Jesus was entombed starting at Friday sundown then Sunday morning falls way short of three days and three nights.
My entire effort of evidencing the "feast days" AKA "set times" was to corroborate, via scripture, the erroneous Church tradition of Good Friday and Sunday morning Resurrection. It also evidences via corroboration that Jesus was crucified. No dumb fishermen could create and implement such a hoax/myth while getting lucky that other Holy Writ confirms what they falsely created. It is not the least bit plausible that the gospels be the conspiratorial genius of the authors. The variations of the post Resurrection scenarios recorded in the gospels PROVE there can be no myth-making intent. IF these accounts are the products of liars/frauds/nefarious miscreants then where is the harmony and compatibility ? The accounts are written from the authors perspective - there are no contradictions - just differences of the reporting of facts. All the common denominators remain, details vary. If evolution was dismissed due to the disagreement over details.........it wouldn't happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by PaulK, posted 03-23-2004 3:38 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 190 of 233 (94168)
03-23-2004 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Brian
03-23-2004 9:13 AM


I've carried you and your deliberate ignorance through-out this one sided debate. Your fundementalism and its hatred has now ranted against the person of Dr.Scott for three consecutive posts. The name calling is embarrassing and indicates a defeated and hysterical person.
You offer no argument against the content of Dr.Scott's teaching.
When Jesus cited Jonah as the SIGN that He/God would give - He also said it specifically "three days and three nights". Friday sundown to Sunday morning is not three days and three nights. You are ignorant of the Jewish calendar and religious holidays. You are also ignorant of the meaning of the O.T. feast days and their prophetic meaning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Brian, posted 03-23-2004 9:13 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Brian, posted 03-23-2004 5:33 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 192 by Loudmouth, posted 03-23-2004 5:38 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 191 of 233 (94193)
03-23-2004 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Cold Foreign Object
03-23-2004 3:34 PM


Jesus Himself cited the SIGN (post 1) of the prophet Jonah....three days and three nights in the whales belly symbolizes His upcoming death (three days and three nights), thats 72 hours. What is so difficult to understand about that ?
There is nothing difficult to understand about that, the problem is you are applying your conception of time with that of the Jewish people, and making a complete dog’s dinner of it.
The Jewish calendar, counts days from evening to evening, from sundown to sundown, not as we do, from sunrise to sunrise. Scripture makes it quite clear.:
Genesis 1:5 "And there was evening and there was morning, one day"
Leviticus 23:32 It is a Sabbath of rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your Sabbath.
You need to absorb this piece of information: in Judaism, a day includes a ‘day and a night, the ‘night’ begins just before sunset and ends just after sunset.
Do you understand? You completely ignore my examples, the reference from Esther illustrates the point very well, she goes to the king on the third day, during the third day, a day that includes a night.
I am at a loss as to why you do not know that Jews count the beginning of the next day at sundown, not at sunrise as we do.
According to Scott, Jesus died on the Wednesday afternoon before sunset, he had to be taken down from the Cross and placed in the tomb before the Sabbath began. So he died on the Wednesday afternoon, the first day, then the transition from ‘day’ to ‘night’ begins before sunset and last until just after sunset when the second day (Thursday according to Scott) begins, so any reference to any part of the day would include a ‘day and a night’. From the Wednesday afternoon, when Jesus died, to just after sunset, when the Thursday begins, would be a period of two days and two nights.
Simple facts. The Jewish day begins with the arrival of night, which would be the appearance of stars in the sky, with the transition of day to night beginning before sunset and lasting until after sunset when the next day begins, and the change of ‘night time’ to ‘day time’ beginning before sunrise and continuing until after sunrise. The dark period of ‘night’ beginning after sunset is the beginning of the next day.
Scott is allowing his Modernism to taint his research, he makes the same mistake as a high school student would make.
You can continue to display this monumental cognitive dissonance all you want, you can continue to ignore God’s Word, you can keep dodging all the evidence presented to you, but it is crystal clear to anyone with an ounce of objectivity that Dr. Scott’s knowledge of Judaism is entirely ignorant.
IF Jesus was entombed starting at Friday sundown then Sunday morning falls way short of three days and three nights.
No it doesn’t, a Jewish ‘day’ consists of a day and a night.
What about the Scripture that says and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
The Lord was raised ON the third day, Scott’s baloney would have him risen on the fifth day! Why are you ignoring this?
I've carried you and your deliberate ignorance through-out this one sided debate.
You haven’t carried anyone, all you have done is to ignore the arguments that blow your views apart, just like any fundamentalist would do, there has been no debate, you have offered nothing except hot air.
fundementalism and its hatred has now ranted against the person of Dr.Scott for three consecutive posts.
There has been no rant, I have been very calmly pointing out how pathetic Scott is, and you are angry because you now know that Scott has made a fool of you, read what the guy claims for goodness sake, his knowledge of the Bible is extremely perverted.
You offer no argument against the content of Dr.Scott's teaching.
You cannot be serious surely? I posted scriptures, you ignored Esther, Mark 14, Matthew 16, and you have refuted nothing. Why was the tomb to be guarded UNTIL the third day? Remember the Roman guards witnessed Jesus emerging form the tomb, this would have to be on the third day, how do you explain this.
Matthew 28: 2-4 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
How on earth could the Roman guards witness this if they were only to remain there until the third day?
He also said it specifically "three days and three nights". Friday sundown to Sunday morning is not three days and three nights.
He also specifically said that 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man
Read Jesus’ words, ‘and IN three days, NOT after three days and three nights, after three days and three nights would then be the fourth day.
How would you harmonise ‘after three days and three nights’ with ‘in three days’, if ‘day’ did not mean ‘a day and a night? You are the one saying the Gospels do not contradict, you explain.
You are ignorant of the Jewish calendar and religious holidays. You are also ignorant of the meaning of the O.T. feast days and their prophetic meaning.
I haven’t posted anything that is ignorant of Judaism, your empty claims are not rebuttals, they display the fact that you haven’t researched this at all, all you have done is to take Scott’s word for it.
Try to actually read what I have posted, if you cannot be bothered going to a library then at least search the web for information on what a Jewish day consists of.
Please answer my points, don't do a 'demeyer' on me, it is becoming extremely boring.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-23-2004 3:34 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-23-2004 10:53 PM Brian has replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 233 (94194)
03-23-2004 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Cold Foreign Object
03-23-2004 3:34 PM


WillowTree,
Matthew 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
This seems consistent with: day 1, crucified and died, placed in the tomb; day 2, in the tomb; day 3, raises from the tomb. On the third day would be Sunday if the body was buried on Friday. Unless you want to claim that the scriptures are mistaken, you seem to be in a quandry.
From my understanding, the Roman soldiers were thinking of breaking Jesus's legs so that he would die sooner. This was because sunset was approaching and the Sabbath would begin at sundown. However, Jesus died just before sundown. This means that he died on Friday, just before sundown. Doing my own math, Friday just before sundown to Saturday just before sundown is 24 hours. Saturday evening to Sunday morning is another 12 hours. The bible is claiming that Jesus was in the tomb for 36 hours, not the 72 hours you are claiming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-23-2004 3:34 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Brian, posted 03-23-2004 6:09 PM Loudmouth has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 193 of 233 (94205)
03-23-2004 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Cold Foreign Object
03-23-2004 3:21 PM


The fact remains that the synoptic Gospels have Jesus arrested after the Passover meal. If the doctrine of inspiration means anything then surely we should not expect the Gospel authors to ruin God's typology. But you say that they do.
And how do the variations in the post-Resurrection prove that the authors were not myth-making ? The Nativity accounts in Matthew and Luke are very different - but that does not change the fact that there is evidence of myth-making there. And the differences in the post-Resurrection accounts are mor than just differences over reporting the facts - not that that should make any difference to you when you say that the synoptics all get the day of the crucifixion wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-23-2004 3:21 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 194 of 233 (94212)
03-23-2004 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Loudmouth
03-23-2004 5:38 PM


Hi LD,
Just a minor point, Jesus was said to have died at three-o-clock in the afternoon. WT's 33AD date is a wild guess, no one knows when Jesus was born or which year he died.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Loudmouth, posted 03-23-2004 5:38 PM Loudmouth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by PaulK, posted 03-23-2004 6:31 PM Brian has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 195 of 233 (94222)
03-23-2004 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Brian
03-23-2004 6:09 PM


I wonder if the Passover dates work for Willowtree's explanation ? I was under the impression that the 33 AD date followed the synoptic line - which has the Passover meal on the Thursday evening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Brian, posted 03-23-2004 6:09 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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