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Author Topic:   Atheist Frendly Q&A
Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 110 (191543)
03-14-2005 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Rand Al'Thor
03-13-2005 2:37 AM


Unsolved mysteries
Partially incomprehendable mystery. I don't ususally quote a lot of scripture in my posts because I'm trying not to be preachy. However, this seems to warrant it.
Psalm 8:3-5 - "When I consider Your heavens, the work of your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained. What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him? For you have made him a little lower than the angels, and you have crowned him with glory and honour."
Though it is partially incomprehensible, the statement that we are "made in his image" is sort of an answer. We are the only creation of which that is stated. Man was made in the image of God to reflect Him. I don't know if that helps at all, but I gave it a whirl. You'll have to ask the Muslims, etc. why there God does, I'm not sure if the answer would be the same or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 03-13-2005 2:37 AM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

  
Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 110 (191546)
03-14-2005 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Thor
03-11-2005 10:27 PM


Re: Serious question
quote:
So, why let an obviously flawed creation continue to grow and run wild on the precious world He created when he has the power to do something about it?
You see "precious world", I think that He sees "Precious humanity." See my post above this one for something on that.
Besides, redemption was shown to be built into the plan as far back as at least Abraham. Someone told me sooner, but I am unable to find the referance. The theme of all history is to restore humanity to it's original form - unfallen and untainted.
Without free-will, there is no true worship, or true redemption. He allows the fall, and allowed us to continue to exist because He truly does love us and wants to see our relationship with Him restored. As long as we live, we always have that option.

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 Message 51 by Thor, posted 03-11-2005 10:27 PM Thor has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 78 of 110 (191655)
03-15-2005 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by nator
03-12-2005 3:45 PM


Re: An honest question
quote:
Me too.
The only problem is, what you call "circular", several of the rest of us call "refusing to admit that you were wrong or that someone else has a better argument than you."
As far as I have been able to tell, the questions have been, indeed, honest.
Your replies lead to more probing questions, but you get irritated at such probing, apparently preferring that we just accept your first answer and stop the continued questioning.
Like I said, unbelievers generally ask too many questions and think too much to be content with pat answers from believers.
"Prudentia, sapientia, intelligentia, mens, cogitatio, discretio, id quod Spiritus sapit,"
"The wisdom, the understanding, the mind, the thought or contrivance, the discretion of the Spirit, that which the Spirit savoureth," .is to be spiritually minded.
The difference is stated in Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
The not-spiritually minded cannot understand the things of the Spirit, or biblical things, and should not be asked to do so.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
The not-spiritually minded sees spiritual matters as foolishness and, indeed, must. His thought processes dictate it to be so. Therefore, any and all answers given, are rejected and must be rejected, they are foolishness to him.
To ask why does he not understand what I have just said, is also foolishness and an injustice. To answer questions of a spiritual nature is a waste of time, and we go round and round, and at the end of it all, still no understanding, because there cannot be.
My responses are designed as a courtesy, more for the silent bystander than for the active questioner, and stopped when this purpose has been served.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by nator, posted 03-12-2005 3:45 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by mikehager, posted 03-15-2005 1:23 PM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 95 by Taqless, posted 03-16-2005 5:14 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 6467 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 79 of 110 (191700)
03-15-2005 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by PecosGeorge
03-15-2005 9:37 AM


Re: An honest question
The arrogance of this is amazing. It's utterly astounding.
We are incapable of understanding your half answers and deceptions because we are "foolish" and not of a sufficiently spiritual nature?
Bullshit. You propose a viewpoint, others show problems with it, and it's not that you could be wrong, it must be a problem with the other person? No. You're just incapable of admitting an error, as others have commented and you have repeatedly shown.
My responses are designed as a courtesy, more for the silent bystander than for the active questioner, and stopped when this purpose has been served.
You say that now, of course. This is the kind of deception I was refferring to. Now that the paucity of reason in your position has been revealed, you say that you never meant to debate in the first place. Why did you post it here, then? You are only claiming this now as some sort of half-ass face saving maneuver.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by PecosGeorge, posted 03-15-2005 9:37 AM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by PecosGeorge, posted 03-15-2005 1:56 PM mikehager has replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 80 of 110 (191707)
03-15-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by mikehager
03-15-2005 1:23 PM


Re: An honest question
quote:
We are incapable of understanding your half answers and deceptions because we are "foolish" and not of a sufficiently spiritual nature?
I have shown from scripture that what is scriptural is foolishness to those of a not-spiritual mind. It means that scripture is foolishness to those who are not of a spiritual mind. I have not said you are foolish, I have not said anyone is foolish, I have said that there are those who are not spiritually minded to understand or accept scripture (at its word), and that requires a spiritual mind, not nature.
quote:
You say that now, of course. This is the kind of deception I was refferring to. Now that the paucity of reason in your position has been revealed, you say that you never meant to debate in the first place. Why did you post it here, then? You are only claiming this now as some sort of half-ass face saving maneuver.
I have never debated except to a certain level or extent. If that means, to you, that I am saying I never meant to debate, that is what it means to you.
You are only claiming that you know what I'm claiming.
What is the difference between spiritually-minded and a spiritual nature? VAST. Everyone has a spiritual nature, not everyone is spiritually-minded.
Now tell me, John 3:16, for God so loved the world, he gave his only-begotten son, that whosever believes in him, should have eternal life........what does it mean?
It also says that the things of the world are enmity against God. Reconcile the two.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by mikehager, posted 03-15-2005 1:23 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by mikehager, posted 03-15-2005 2:14 PM PecosGeorge has replied
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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6467 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 81 of 110 (191712)
03-15-2005 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by PecosGeorge
03-15-2005 1:56 PM


Re: An honest question
The level that you choose to debate to is the level when your position is being revealed in it's weakness. Then you run, call it circular, or otherwise withdraw. It isn't that you never meant to debate, it's that you can't allow yourself to loose. This is just another example.
What does John 3:16 mean to me? It is a poetic wording of the gift brought by Christ, which is the exact same gift brought by all the dying and resurrecting gods from Baldur on down. The knowledge that death is part of life and not to be feared. All myth does nothing more then teaching by metaphor what it means to be human and what it takes to be human. It is about making the vital transition in life to what has been called "oneness with the absolute", where one realizes that the divine lives in us all and is at once the most precious, common, and unrecognized of things. In other words, to die is to be human and there is no finer thing to be. The problem with literal belief such as yours is that it can often obscure the real value and meaning of myth.
I suppose this will be a dead end, because you are incapable of questioning your literal belief and you will either declare this circular or foolish and run away. Life as a follower is very easy. Welcome to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by PecosGeorge, posted 03-15-2005 1:56 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by PecosGeorge, posted 03-15-2005 3:17 PM mikehager has replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 82 of 110 (191729)
03-15-2005 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by mikehager
03-15-2005 2:14 PM


Re: An honest question
quote:
What does John 3:16 mean to me? It is a poetic wording of the gift brought by Christ, which is the exact same gift brought by all the dying and resurrecting gods from Baldur on down. The knowledge that death is part of life and not to be feared. All myth does nothing more then teaching by metaphor what it means to be human and what it takes to be human. It is about making the vital transition in life to what has been called "oneness with the absolute", where one realizes that the divine lives in us all and is at once the most precious, common, and unrecognized of things. In other words, to die is to be human and there is no finer thing to be. The problem with literal belief such as yours is that it can often obscure the real value and meaning of myth.
That's very nice and a great story. What do you care how I take the scriptures, what do you really care. What business is it of yours? Any? Some? None?
quote:
I suppose this will be a dead end, because you are incapable of questioning your literal belief and you will either declare this circular or foolish and run away. Life as a follower is very easy. Welcome to it.
What reason do I have to question my way of believing? What reason do you have to question yours?
A dead end because I am not capable of questioning my literal belief?
Declare it circular or foolish?
That makes no sense to me, which is a good thing.

Pascal's Wager......nice try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by mikehager, posted 03-15-2005 2:14 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by mikehager, posted 03-15-2005 3:37 PM PecosGeorge has replied

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 6467 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 83 of 110 (191733)
03-15-2005 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by PecosGeorge
03-15-2005 3:17 PM


Re: An honest question
What do you care how I take the scriptures, what do you really care. What business is it of yours? Any? Some? None?
You offer them up here at a debate forum and then don't want them questioned? Curious.
What reason do I have to question my way of believing? What reason do you have to question yours?
I question mine all the time. That is how one grows. You should give it a try.
A dead end because I am not capable of questioning my literal belief?
Yes. Anytime you are confronted with something that casts doubt on your pedantic, literalist worldview and would cause a reasonable person to question themselves, you find some excuse to withdraw by...
Declare it circular or foolish?
Yes. That's how.
That makes no sense to me, which is a good thing.
It really isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by PecosGeorge, posted 03-15-2005 3:17 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by PecosGeorge, posted 03-15-2005 4:18 PM mikehager has replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 84 of 110 (191742)
03-15-2005 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by mikehager
03-15-2005 3:37 PM


Re: An honest question
quote:
What do you care how I take the scriptures, what do you really care. What business is it of yours? Any? Some? None?
You offer them up here at a debate forum and then don't want them questioned? Curious.
What reason do I have to question my way of believing? What reason do you have to question yours?
I question mine all the time. That is how one grows. You should give it a try.
A dead end because I am not capable of questioning my literal belief?
Yes. Anytime you are confronted with something that casts doubt on your pedantic, literalist worldview and would cause a reasonable person to question themselves, you find some excuse to withdraw by...
Declare it circular or foolish?
Yes. That's how.
That makes no sense to me, which is a good thing.
It really isn't.
Not on your life and never on your terms or anyone else's.
But good for a haha!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by mikehager, posted 03-15-2005 3:37 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by mikehager, posted 03-15-2005 4:45 PM PecosGeorge has replied

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 6467 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 85 of 110 (191750)
03-15-2005 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by PecosGeorge
03-15-2005 4:18 PM


Re: An honest question
Not on your life and never on your terms or anyone else's.
But good for a haha!
And that is your problem. Belief in a thing without question is never good. Close-mindedness is not a virtue. The fact that you are so secure not asking why and simply following that you can only laugh at those who think, learn and question is very, very sad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by PecosGeorge, posted 03-15-2005 4:18 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by AdminJar, posted 03-15-2005 5:54 PM mikehager has replied
 Message 89 by PecosGeorge, posted 03-16-2005 1:11 PM mikehager has not replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 110 (191770)
03-15-2005 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by mikehager
03-15-2005 4:45 PM


Re: An honest question
mikehagar writes:
And that is your problem.
Mike. Please. This is a Q&A thread. It's not designed as a place to ambush someone on a personal level.
The goal is for Atheists to ask questions and Theists to respond. It's not a place to decide what someone should believe or to change someones mind, it's meant to help parties understand what it is the other believes.
PG has said he believes something and also that he will go no further trying to explain his beliefs or reasoning for those beliefs.
Fine, that satisfies all the conditions for this topic.
You are perfectly within your rights and the intent of this thread to respond by showing why YOU believe differently. You can also set limits on the extent and depth that you are willing to go in support of your belief.
But we're dealing with beliefs here folk, not science.
If we are going to get input from a variety of people it is not helpful when they see a personal attack as opposed to a discussion of the material.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by mikehager, posted 03-15-2005 4:45 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by mikehager, posted 03-15-2005 6:17 PM AdminJar has replied

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 6467 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 87 of 110 (191773)
03-15-2005 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by AdminJar
03-15-2005 5:54 PM


Re: An honest question
I have in all other instances of reprimand by the admins agreed with their estimation of my behavior. Additionally, Jar is one of the two theists on this board I deem reasonable (Phat is the other). In this case, I cannot.
I was pointing out PG's refusal to discuss his beliefs when requested and that it is bad for an individual to fail to critically consider their beliefs. I stand by my position and reaffirm that it was something that needed to be said to PG. It was in no way an "ambush"
Take what action you see fit, Oh Admins. I know this isn't my board.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by AdminJar, posted 03-15-2005 5:54 PM AdminJar has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 110 (191775)
03-15-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by mikehager
03-15-2005 6:17 PM


just an admonishment.
I don't plan ANY action. Just in a thread like this, comments such as "That's your problem" serve no purpose and can only work to inhibit other people expressing their beliefs.
If you can, please try to support YOUR position proactively. Show why you behave or believe differently.
That's all I ask.
Thank you sir.

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This message is a reply to:
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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 89 of 110 (191935)
03-16-2005 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by mikehager
03-15-2005 4:45 PM


Re: An honest question
quote:
Not on your life and never on your terms or anyone else's.
But good for a haha!
And that is your problem. Belief in a thing without question is never good. Close-mindedness is not a virtue. The fact that you are so secure not asking why and simply following that you can only laugh at those who think, learn and question is very, very sad.
ROFL
I hope your delusions of grandeur are not too painful.
Now, may the Sun of Righteousness rise upon you with healing in his wings.
God bless you real good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by mikehager, posted 03-15-2005 4:45 PM mikehager has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by AdminJar, posted 03-16-2005 1:21 PM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 100 by nator, posted 03-16-2005 11:08 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 110 (191938)
03-16-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by PecosGeorge
03-16-2005 1:11 PM


Cut it out!!!
I hope your delusions of grandeur are not too painful.
Such stements do NOTHING to further the coversation. I have told Mike to cut them out, now I'm telling you.
Discuss the content, not the person.
Frankly, if you are going to take part in these discussions you need to do better. Your tactic of running in, tossing in a firebrand and then when challeged, simply retreating into some protective coccoon is NOT debate or discussion.
If you are going to insert a comment, be prepared to discuss and support your statements. If you're not going to do so, then don't bother making the initail assertion.

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by PecosGeorge, posted 03-16-2005 1:11 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by PecosGeorge, posted 03-16-2005 2:19 PM AdminJar has replied

  
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