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Author Topic:   Free will, or is it?
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 121 of 163 (456443)
02-18-2008 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by rstrats
02-16-2008 10:09 PM


rstrats writes:
Several of you here are saying or at least implying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. If so, perhaps one of you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be saying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ”x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ”x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ”x’ exists or is true?
This is the thing that has been confusing me too - although you phrase it in a new way. A notion has been propagated which says that you must (somehow) choose-for-God before you have the kind of evidence available which would allow you to believe in the normal fashion of believing thing.
It seems to me to be a kind of pull-yourself-up-by-your-own-bootstraps kind of belief. Clearly there is some element, some nuance, that the notion lacks. I hope your question illicits some answers on the subject

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by rstrats, posted 02-16-2008 10:09 PM rstrats has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 122 of 163 (456454)
02-18-2008 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Blue Jay
02-16-2008 11:40 PM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
bluejay writes:
From my interpretation, if works are required to make your faith perfect, and if works can justify you, you can, through your works, contribute in some "way, shape or form" to your own salvation. If the Book of Mormon were permissible as scriptural proof, I would provide even clearer references, but this one suffices.
You're probably familiar enough with the arguments against this view that my counter-note will suffice as a response.
Working out our own salvation (with fear and trembling) does indeed perfect our (Christians) faith. But it's a working outwards of something that God has sown in - namely our having been born into God's family, where we (begin to) view things as God views them. 'Good work' follows as a consequence of having being saved -rather than contributing to that aspect of salvation we already possess: having passed from death to life.
James point is a true one. A faith that does not produce good works is not a (God-sown) faith. It's a religious faith perhaps. And the good works arising out of that religious faith might look the same as the works produced by a God-sown faith. But they are imitation and false. Filthy rags righteousness.
It is God who works (in the saved person) to will and to act according to his good pleasure. Other works need not apply
I'm not sure my views here will be appreciated much, because I am an evolutionist and a Mormon, but I will provide them anyway.
I'm not sure why a mormons view shouldn't be appreciated. Dealing with a theistic evolutionist is quite a different thing to dealing with a agnostic or atheistic evolutionist. The latter, in supposing their brain to be the product of purely deterministic/accidental processes can only go in circles whilst figuring out how to objectively trust anything that organ tells them
My religion does not believe in a manipulative God: we believe that, by and large, God awaits our choice to request His aid before rendering it.
You seem to be implying that lack of free choice (as traditionally understood: me faced with a left turn or right turn and being freely able to chose to go in either direction) renders God a manipulative God. In order to conclude that however, you would have to pose all other possible systems and analyse them for manipulativeness.
Can I suggest your conclusion undemonstrable - even to yourself?
However, He is seen as supporting us in times when we are attempting to do His will, but are falling short (which is, believe it or not, quite common).
Why would the general populace attempt to do the will of a God they didn't believe in? Especially if the will of God happened to conflict with their own desires.
Also, giving our free will ("agency" is the term we like) to God (by choosing to serve Him) is the only true gift that we can give Him, because it is the only gift that He can't take away from us on His own.
I would agree that free agency is required in order to gift to God in any meaningful (to God) way. I just disagree that man-as-born has free will.
rstrats question above is one for you perhaps. How is a person meant to (freely) believe in God without pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.
From my interpretation, if works are required to make your faith perfect, and if works can justify you, you can, through your works, contribute in some "way, shape or form" to your own salvation.
Thus Mormonism shares a core principle of all of the following: Islam, Hinduism, Jehovahs Witness, Roman Catholicism, Buddhism, Christadelphianism, Wicca, etc., etc.,...
That is: your salvation (or whatever the carrot happens to be) depends on your working for it.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Blue Jay, posted 02-16-2008 11:40 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Blue Jay, posted 02-18-2008 2:37 PM iano has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 123 of 163 (456466)
02-18-2008 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by iano
02-18-2008 4:07 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
an object on one path that is subject to the one path because of its condition, takes the path it can only take. you on the other hand, have a choice.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 4:07 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 8:47 AM tesla has replied
 Message 126 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 9:20 AM tesla has replied

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 138
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 124 of 163 (456468)
02-18-2008 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by tesla
02-18-2008 8:30 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
tesla,
re: “...you on the other hand, have a choice.”
Would that include the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by tesla, posted 02-18-2008 8:30 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by tesla, posted 02-18-2008 9:03 AM rstrats has replied
 Message 127 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 9:24 AM rstrats has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 125 of 163 (456474)
02-18-2008 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by rstrats
02-18-2008 8:47 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
the ability to accept a truth is different per individual. the choice to examine evidence to come to conclusion is yours.
what is necessary for you to believe?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 8:47 AM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 9:36 AM tesla has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 126 of 163 (456476)
02-18-2008 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by tesla
02-18-2008 8:30 AM


Jerusalem, Jerusalem
tesla writes:
an object on one path that is subject to the one path because of its condition, takes the path it can only take. you on the other hand, have a choice.
Just to point out that we are speaking about a lost person and not me. It would very much appear to be the case that the saved have free will restored.
A lost person “on the other hand” has a will. The Bible describes this will as sin-enslaved. It’s a will which, when exercised, only works to suppress God’s truth - permitting the person to engage in the sin they are addicted to. But it’s a will for all that. So let’s call the expression of a persons will “an interior force”. We now have:
“ a person in motion along the path to the point of salvation will continue on that path - unless acted upon by an interior force”
I agree that it is a condition and not an act of will that maintains a person on this path. Gods desire than none perish is the condition that does that for fallen men. Nor is there any exercise of the will required to maintain a person on the path to the point of salvation. God’s effort does that for them - it is he who calls and draws all towards salvation.
The only thing the person can “choose” for is to get off that path. Their will exercised so as to counter, and finally negate, God’s will excercised in the attempt to save them.
quote:
Luke 13:34 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you kill the prophets and stone to death those sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you were not willing!
Not willing = willed it not. Jesus will gather all except those who will it not.
No free will on our part is required.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by tesla, posted 02-18-2008 8:30 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by tesla, posted 02-18-2008 9:33 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 127 of 163 (456477)
02-18-2008 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by rstrats
02-18-2008 8:47 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
Hi rstrats
If you click on the PEEK button down the bottom right corner of this post you can see what codes to use to get
this
that writes:
these
quote:
and those

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 8:47 AM rstrats has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 128 of 163 (456479)
02-18-2008 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by iano
02-18-2008 9:20 AM


Re: Jerusalem, Jerusalem
I agree that it is a condition and not an act of will that maintains a person on this path. Gods desire than none perish is the condition that does that for fallen men. Nor is there any exercise of the will required to maintain a person on the path to the point of salvation. God’s effort does that for them - it is he who calls and draws all towards salvation.
there are two paths, and those dead in sin are only dead by their choice, they love the evil they are in, and God would condemn the evil's, so they hide from the truth. and don't even want to tempt examining it because of fear of condemnation.
Luke 13:34 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you kill the prophets and stone to death those sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you were not willing!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not willing = willed it not. Jesus will gather all except those who will it not.
there are those who call themselves Christians, but in truth are not. and in the last day, when they stand before God and say : have i not believed? i went to church! i chose not to sleep with that whore and i reaaaallly wanted to! why cannot i enter into the kingdom of heaven!!?
they are not wearing the proper clothes. they want to believe but believe the way they want to, and not obey God's commandments because they do not accept it in their hearts. but if in your heart and mind you accept the truth, then because of your love and fear of God, you will obey him within all your abilities.
because you believe in God does not mean he serves you. it means you recognize and serve him. his will. his laws. his commandments. and seek his glory, not your own. and not try to do as Jesus has done, because you cannot do that. but to be thankful that God came and died for you, in the body of the man we call Jesus.
we do have choice. free will, even as God gave us the choice. man chooses selfishly, but God gave selflessly, so that we seeing that, would also give selflessly, but with wisdom also, because God is wise.
if you are sick, and take medicine to cure your illness, and your body rejects the medicine, your body made its choice, and you now have your choice: new medicine, or cut out the illness from your body, so that you might gain health. God gave the last medicine there was to have, and now those who reject it, have the final answer for their choice: be of God's body as they were born into it; or be rejected from it, having rejected him who they exist in.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 9:20 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 9:55 AM tesla has replied

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 138
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 129 of 163 (456480)
02-18-2008 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by tesla
02-18-2008 9:03 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
tesla,
re: “ the choice to examine evidence to come to conclusion is yours.”
If beliefs can simply be CHOSEN, evidence is not necessary - prudent in some cases perhaps - but not necessary.
re: “what is necessary for you to believe?”
I would guess that when I realize that I have a new belief, that it is most likely a result of a process that has occurred in my subconscious mind due to an exposure to certain outside stimuli; such as literature, lectures, media, conversation, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by tesla, posted 02-18-2008 9:03 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by tesla, posted 02-18-2008 9:44 AM rstrats has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 130 of 163 (456481)
02-18-2008 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by rstrats
02-18-2008 9:36 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
if outside it is raining, and someone Say's to you: it is raining. and you reply: no its not, the weather said it wasn't going to rain until tomorrow. and they say: they were wrong..go look, it is raining.
and sitting there your watching a movie and say : well i don't believe it. maybe after this movie ill go check. and the movie ends and you check, and its still raining. you had believed the forecasters who said it would not rain, but after examination you saw they were wrong. what you believe then is your choice regardless of the truth, but unless you check for the truth, how will you know?
if your belief can change with new evidence that you find to be true, then if evidence is available , should you not look and See if what you do now believe is true or not?
what proof has lead you to your decision to believe what you now believe? you can shut your eyes, you can watch another movie, and not check outside to see if it is raining, but that don't mean it isn't truly raining. are you willing to go look and see?
if i came to your house, and proclaimed: everyone out of the house! there's a plane fixing to crash into it!!!
and you lock the door and say : your full of it man. is it worth the death of you and your family?
but if you walk outside and see a plane heading for your house , on fire, and missing a wing, will you not get you and your family and leave before it hits?
if someone Say's: this table is sturdy, and you say OK ill buy it, and get home and it crumbles, who is to blame? but if they Say it is sturdy, and you stand on it, and it does not crumble, and you jump on it, and it doesn't wiggle, then buy that table, because you have tested it, and it is solid.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 9:36 AM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 10:06 AM tesla has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 131 of 163 (456482)
02-18-2008 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by tesla
02-18-2008 9:33 AM


Re: Jerusalem, Jerusalem
tesla writes:
there are two paths, and those dead in sin are only dead by their choice,
I was under the impression that folk were born dead in their sins and transgressions. Which is why they need to be born again.
At what point do you suggest they died by choice?
The rest of your post is jumbled and doesn't really address the points made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by tesla, posted 02-18-2008 9:33 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by tesla, posted 02-18-2008 10:00 AM iano has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 132 of 163 (456483)
02-18-2008 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by iano
02-18-2008 9:55 AM


Re: Jerusalem, Jerusalem
the death is on them because they live in the sin of the earthly fathers, and the knowledge of good and evil. with the knowledge, they have the choice to accept the evil or the good.
we are born into the day after Christ has come, and not before. the medicine is available to us. eat and drink the medicine and you will be saved, but do not eat and drink, and you will die.
to be born of water is to be a man, to be born of the spirit is to become the bride of God.
Edited by tesla, : capital C

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 9:55 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 10:15 AM tesla has replied

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 138
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 133 of 163 (456484)
02-18-2008 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by tesla
02-18-2008 9:44 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
tesla,
You’re missing the point. Your comments in your post #130 would indeed apply to the “prudent” part of my last post, but they don’t apply to the basic notion that beliefs can simply be consciously CHOSEN. If they can be, then evidence is not necessary. You can just CHOOSE to have them. Can you do that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by tesla, posted 02-18-2008 9:44 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by tesla, posted 02-18-2008 10:15 AM rstrats has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 134 of 163 (456487)
02-18-2008 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by rstrats
02-18-2008 10:06 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
tesla,
You’re missing the point. Your comments in your post #130 would indeed apply to the “prudent” part of my last post, but they don’t apply to the basic notion that beliefs can simply be consciously CHOSEN. If they can be, then evidence is not necessary. You can just CHOOSE to have them. Can you do that?
what is the choice you have? if you mean by your free will, that if you choose to believe the world is flat, because its all you can conclude with evidence, and so have no choice in the matter, then you believe it because no evidence gives you a choice to believe otherwise.
your heart and mind will reject what it does not understand, so also did my mind and heart reject what i could not understand. if you are content, and need no other evidence, and there is no danger in the belief you now hold because what else can you believe? but what you can understand? then you have your belief with no choice because of the evidence that is only available.
but if there is a danger in believing the world is flat, that the belief can kill you, then wouldn't that man start checking for the truth? and wasn't evidence discovered by observing a ship comes from the water and its mast was seen first at its coming?
because you have not seen other evidence, does not mean there is non available, with your life potentially on the line by what you have been told, should you not look for evidence?
you believe you have no choice but to believe what you can understand, so is that the truth. but also, you have a choice to examine the truth that you might know. and evidence is available for those who choose to look. based on the evidence, then you can believe what you examine to see is the truth. but if you choose not to look, that is your choice.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 10:06 AM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 10:45 AM tesla has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 135 of 163 (456488)
02-18-2008 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by tesla
02-18-2008 10:00 AM


Re: Jerusalem, Jerusalem
iano writes:
I was under the impression that folk were born dead in their sins and transgressions. Which is why they need to be born again. At what point do you suggest they "died by choice"?
tesla writes:
the death is on them because they live in the sin of the earthly fathers, and the knowledge of good and evil. with the knowledge, they have the choice to accept the evil or the good.
we are born into the day after Christ has come, and not before. the medicine is available to us. eat and drink the medicine and you will be saved, but do not eat and drink, and you will die.
to be born of water is to be a man, to be born of the spirit is to become the bride of God.
The query was, at what point did they die by choice

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by tesla, posted 02-18-2008 10:00 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by tesla, posted 02-18-2008 10:24 AM iano has replied

  
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