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Author Topic:   Free will, or is it?
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 91 of 163 (455698)
02-13-2008 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ICANT
02-13-2008 12:23 PM


Re: Man choosing
quote:
God can cause you to do anything. God can prevent you from doing anything. This is correct.
If god can (and does) cause anyone to do, or stop anyone from doing, anything, at any time, then we don't really have free will.
If god has ever, even a single time, contravened in anybody's life to cause or prevent anything happening, then free will doesn't exist.
quote:
This is the devil's kingdom at present and has been from the beginning.
So, do you admit that there is no unambiguous scripture anywhere in the Bible that states that the serpent in Genesis = Satan?
Don't you think that is a bit of a shoehorn, sticking Satan in there where he isn't actually referred to at all, and particularly when he is referred to as simply a "beast of the field"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 12:23 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 1:16 PM nator has replied
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 1:49 PM nator has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 92 of 163 (455705)
02-13-2008 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by nator
02-13-2008 12:46 PM


Re: Man choosing
Schraf writes:
If god has ever, even a single time, contravened in anybody's life to cause or prevent anything happening, then free will doesn't exist.
Not true. It can exist but be constrained to operate within set boundaries. The argument for your having free will reasons that free will is supplied you in order for you to make a decision regarding God. For/against
There is no requirement that every act or thought of yours results from your own free will. For instance, God might decide to ensure you carry out a particular action by suspending your will on the matter for that moment and having his will done instead.
All that matters is that you have sufficient free will to enable choice on the main matter to hand. If 10% of your life consisted of free willed actions and the rest influenced by God then free will you had - for that 10% of life.
If deemed sufficient free-willed time w.r.t the matter of your choosing for/against God then sufficient it is

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 12:46 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 3:29 PM iano has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 93 of 163 (455706)
02-13-2008 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by CK
02-13-2008 11:42 AM


Re: Questions answer questions?
Hi CK,
CK writes:
Your take is that god creates the universe and then within the universe, man can exercise his free will as he pleases. The problem with this is that if the christian god is as described, it is impossible for him not to affect all of the outcomes at the point of creation.
You keep equating God's foreknowledge with total control.
You are also equating God with evolution. I do not hold that view.
I believe God created the Universe and it was Perfect in Genesis 1:1.
I believe God created a perfect man whom He gave the ability to choose to know good and evil. He placed this man on a perfect earth in a perfect garden.
Lucifer was put in charge of this part of the universe that included the earth, It was his kingdom and still is until he is defeated and cast into the lake of fire.
Lucifer tried to exalt his angels above God's angel's that failed.
He then enlisted the woman God had gave man to get him to join forces with him. Man chose to be in charge of his own destiny so God kicked him out just like He had kicked Lucifer out.
From that time until this there has been a war between Lucifer and God. All humans when they reach the point the man did when he ate the fruit of the tree in the garden become responsible for themselves, their actions and choices.
Man has been given free will and the ability to choose without interference from God.
Lucifer or the devil which ever you call him is under no restrictions. He is free to make any kind of deal with you he desires to offer.
CK writes:
This is the crux of the problem - it is inherent in the creation that every element and every possibility occurs as the designer wanted - because it is impossible for him not to know the outcomes.
Where did designer come from? You don't hear me preaching ID.
So take it somewhere else.
CK writes:
There can only be free will in this universe, if a) god sets the intital conditions but is unable to determine possible outcomes or b) god is unable to control all of the conditiions and variables that determine the state of the universe. Neither a or b are possible with the mainstgream christian god concept.
CK lets get a couple of things straight.
I am not YEC, ID'ST or mainstream christian. I don't even claim to be a Christian. Christian to me means Christ Like and I am a long ways from being like Christ although I am trying very hard.
Free will = the ability to choose for one's self.
"a) god sets the intital conditions but is unable to determine possible outcomes"
God created everything perfect. He put Lucifer in charge. From that moment on God limited Himself as to what He would and would not do. He has that power.
"b) god is unable to control all of the conditiions and variables that determine the state of the universe."
God is able to control everything BUT He has chosen to limit Himself as to what He will or will not do.
He does not control what man does to himself or the earth.
We can destroy it if we so choose and I think we have decided to try.
He did choose to do certain things and they will come to pass.
One of those is man's ability to use free will to choose to receive God or reject Him.
God's ability to see the future in no way makes Him responsible for man's decisions.
King Saul wanted to know the outcome of a battle before it took place so he went to the local fortune teller. She told him he was going to lose. He made the fortune teller go into battle with him which he lost.
Was it the fortune tellers fault King Saul lost the battle because she knew the outcome before the battle started?
That is exactly what you are accusing God of.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by CK, posted 02-13-2008 11:42 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by CK, posted 02-13-2008 1:53 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 94 of 163 (455708)
02-13-2008 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by bluegenes
02-13-2008 12:26 PM


Re: Questions answer questions?
Hi bluegenes,
bluegenes writes:
I'm saying that if an omniscient, omnipotent God chooses to give us genuine free will, he is passing on some power and sacrificing his ability to know the future, so would no longer be described as omniscient and omnipotent. By definition.
Why would God giving man the ability to choose keep Him from being able to see in the future?
bluegenes writes:
A being cannot have all power and all knowledge once others can make decisions and influence events. So, there's a contradiction in your theology.
If you work in a company the boss gives you the authority to do a specific task. You are allowed to do that task until the boss decides he will no longer allow you to do that task. So by him giving you the authority in the first place did he in any way give up any power to make the decisions?
God will allow man to make the decisions for so long then one day He will say enough is enough at that time He will exercise His Power and His Judgments.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by bluegenes, posted 02-13-2008 12:26 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 95 of 163 (455712)
02-13-2008 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by nator
02-13-2008 12:46 PM


Re: Man choosing
Hi nator,
nator writes:
If god can (and does) cause anyone to do, or stop anyone from doing, anything, at any time, then we don't really have free will.
If god has ever, even a single time, contravened in anybody's life to cause or prevent anything happening, then free will doesn't exist.
I agree with that. that is the reason you find just below my statement that God could cause you or anyone to do or not do anything you will find:
ICANT writes:
Message 85God will not cause you to do anything. God will not prevent you from doing anything. This is correct.
If you were being honest and not trying to deceive others you would have addressed that point also.
nator writes:
Don't you think that is a bit of a shoehorn, sticking Satan in there where he isn't actually referred to at all, and particularly when he is referred to as simply a "beast of the field"?
I do not believe in talking snakes.
So I gave you an example of the devil entering a man so why could he not enter a snake. I never said the snake or serpent was the devil only that he was speaking through him.
And yes God did put a curse on the snake because the devil had used him.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 12:46 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 3:36 PM ICANT has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 96 of 163 (455713)
02-13-2008 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
02-13-2008 1:18 PM


Re: Questions answer questions?
Evolution? Eh ? What's this to do with evolution?
you don't believe temporality is linear in our universe?
I'll leave it there as you seem mentally unable to grasp the concepts we are discussing and the implications of said concepts - maybe one of the other posters could draw a diagram or something.
Edited by CK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 1:18 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 97 of 163 (455719)
02-13-2008 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by iano
02-13-2008 12:28 PM


Re: Hello Iano
Hello iano,
iano writes:
I'd largely agree except to say that we have no free will therefore cannot do anything in terms of choosing for this gift. God must be the one to place it in our hands for us. All we can do is chose to reject it.
Let me see if I can express my understanding of free will concerning man's choice in the matter at hand.
Assuming I know where you live and have a phone number for you.
I call you and say iano there is a plane ticket at the airport in your name. If you want to come visit me in sunny Florida all you have to do come on down.
There are some thing involved in you reaching Florida.
First you would have to believe the offer was sincere.
Second you would have to believe I would do what I said I would do.
Third you would have to go to the airport claim the ticket get on the plane.
Skip any of those steps and you would not make it to Florida.
At any point you could exercise your free will and change your mind until the plane backed away from the dock.
God and free will concerning the free pardon.
To obtain the free pardon offered by God.
The first thing a person would have to do is exercise their free will and choose to believe God exists.
The second thing a person would have to do is exercise their free will and believe God's offer was genuine and that He would honor His Word.
The final thing a person would have to do is exercise their free will and sit down in the seat of flight final (at this time the full pardon is in full effect) and depend on the pilot (Jesus) to get them to their final destination.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 12:28 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 8:16 PM ICANT has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 163 (455732)
02-13-2008 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by iano
02-13-2008 1:16 PM


Re: Man choosing
quote:
It can exist but be constrained to operate within set boundaries.
Then, if God is "constrained", He isn't All-Powerful.
quote:
All that matters is that you have sufficient free will to enable choice on the main matter to hand. If 10% of your life consisted of free willed actions and the rest influenced by God then free will you had - for that 10% of life.
That's just a dodge, and a pretty clumsy one at that.
If free will isn't 24/7, then free will doesn't exist.
If I can be compelled to do something that I wouldn't ordinarily have done, then I didn't freely choose to do it, did I?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 1:16 PM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 99 of 163 (455733)
02-13-2008 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ICANT
02-13-2008 1:49 PM


Re: Man choosing
quote:
I do not believe in talking snakes.
You believe in a magical Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you believe in a magical god who poofs people and animals, and in fact the whole universe, into existence, you believe in a magical Noachian Flood that magically left no evidence behind, etc. etc. etc.
You believe in all sorts of magic, I don't know why talking snakes should give you a problem.
quote:
And yes God did put a curse on the snake because the devil had used him.
Can you show me the biblical verse where it specifically says that Satan had used the serpent in Genesis, and that God cursed the serpent specifically because of Satan's actions?
My copy of Genesis mentions nothing at all of the rather wild interpretations you seem to be making about Satan's involvement.
Satan is not mentioned in Genesis at all.
A serpent is. You are putting Satan into the Genesis story where he doesn't belong.
By the way, that's not very just of God to curse a poor, dumb animal if it was only being posessed by Satan and had no choice in what it did, is it?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 1:49 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 5:04 PM nator has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 100 of 163 (455757)
02-13-2008 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by nator
02-13-2008 3:36 PM


Re: Man choosing
Hi nator,
nator writes:
Satan is not mentioned in Genesis at all.
You are correct but he is mentioned. But what difference does it make you do not believe the Bible no matter what it says.
Reve 12:9 (KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Reve 20:2 (KJV) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
If that old serpent deceived the whole world it had to include the first woman.
But it does not make any difference who or what was talking to the first woman. She ate the fruit.
The first man willfully chose to eat the fruit he could have chosen not to eat the fruit and he would still be in the garden by himself.
Instead he exercised his free will and ate the fruit. Nobody forced him, deceived him or tricked him into eating the fruit.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 3:36 PM nator has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 101 of 163 (455794)
02-13-2008 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by iano
02-13-2008 12:33 PM


Re: Hello Iano
if you accept God, he is superior to all your reasoning. period. he can do what or what not as he chooses, and we cannot understand if he told us about how he decides his actions.
if you see God in reality, as the initial body with intelligence , before all things, then all things are a part of his body, and outside his body is no existence at all. anything that exists, exists only in his faith that he is, which is the established existence, and the laws of how things exist were set by God for this universe and its form.
now, lets observe death under this observation: faith: existence no faith: no existence.
if all we know and study is real only by faith, then the death of this body is recycled in the body, and since God has a consciousness(intelligence) then death is only as God decides in his body (energy cannot be created or destroyed)
einstein believed in an afterlife because science Say's nothing is truly destroyed.
now i cant show you proof, accept faith. if all that is exists by faith, then by faith will you have a part of faith. if you have no faith , but doubt, then doubt is corrupt to faith. and faith will not hear doubt and exist if it doubts. so faith will cut off doubt.
thats why you have the dogmatism in threads such as these. if you are a person of faith, you will resist doubt, and conquer it, or you will loose faith and be conquered.
but again what is the truth?
you have the choice in what to believe. what you believe in, you have faith in. thats the choice.
is it dangerous to get it wrong? i mean, if i don't believe in God ? that means there's no hell right?
what is the truth? what is "reality"?
is God? or is he not?
the answer is the answer to the question : what is existence, and how is it possible?
the choice however, is yours.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 12:33 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 8:28 PM tesla has replied

  
Crooked to what standard
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 109
From: Bozeman, Montana, USA
Joined: 01-31-2008


Message 102 of 163 (455795)
02-13-2008 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Logic
02-11-2008 11:35 PM


quote:
If god gave us free will, then how can he know the out come of our choices, thus how can prophecies be made?
I believe that God doesn't knowwhat we'll do. However, He can, how to say, impose His will on us. It's still a free choice, but God can give us the urge to do something that may cause something to happen (something that He predicted) as long as the will is followed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Logic, posted 02-11-2008 11:35 PM Logic has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by tesla, posted 02-13-2008 7:38 PM Crooked to what standard has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 103 of 163 (455797)
02-13-2008 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Crooked to what standard
02-13-2008 7:32 PM


I believe that God doesn't knowwhat we'll do. However, He can, how to say, impose His will on us. It's still a free choice, but God can give us the urge to do something that may cause something to happen (something that He predicted) as long as the will is followed.
i believe that God knows what God knows, and no man can know what God truly does or does not know.
i also believe that if you choose to serve God, truly. then God may use his servants for his will, and not the will of the man or the individual. and those are the "works" professed of in the bible. not mans, but Gods will by men who truly serve him.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Crooked to what standard, posted 02-13-2008 7:32 PM Crooked to what standard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Crooked to what standard, posted 02-13-2008 8:29 PM tesla has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 104 of 163 (455798)
02-13-2008 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ICANT
02-13-2008 2:27 PM


Free will. As in problems with
ICANT writes:
Let me see if I can express my understanding of free will concerning man's choice in the matter at hand.
I appreciate what you are saying but the problems are, to my mind, insurmountable.
Firstly, a person exercising their free will has contributed in no short measure to their salvation. My understanding is that the Bible excludes any and all notions of a person contributing in any way, shape or form to their salvation.
The Bible also seems to preclude the idea of the lost having a free will in the first place. We are described as being enslaved, dead, blind. Not the kind of words one would typically ascribe to free-willed agents. I'm no Calvinist but can't help but agree that the T in TULIP strikes the nail on the head biblically
Then we have this..
ICANT writes:
The first thing a person would have to do is exercise their free will and choose to believe God exists.
Perhaps, but only after one embraces the irrational.
The reason people believe anything is due to their having a reason to believe it. For something as fantastic as Gods existance, the reason for/evidence of his existing would have to be pretty compelling BEFORE the person could be expected to believe.
Asking a person to exercise their will unto belief - when the reason/evidence for God's existance is not at all compelling (from their perspective) is like asking them to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps - a completely unreasonable and irrational request.
The God I know is neither
Edited by iano, : change sub-title

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 2:27 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Crooked to what standard, posted 02-13-2008 8:36 PM iano has replied
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 10:04 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 105 of 163 (455801)
02-13-2008 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by tesla
02-13-2008 7:30 PM


Re: Hello Iano
I'm sorry tesla. I can't begin to understand what your trying to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by tesla, posted 02-13-2008 7:30 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
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