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Author Topic:   Believing in God, But Not Literally
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 31 of 59 (174038)
01-05-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
01-04-2005 6:40 PM


Re: Vast differences in opinions?
Many people seem to see Christianity as a "Get out of Hell" card, a trump that can be played to forgive a multitude of errors. They believe therfore they are saved. If they slip up, doesn't matter. They can say the magic word and down comes the duck (a reference for the Old Farts among us. Anyone remember the name of that Program?).
Here is a really good example of this attitude.
This actually happened while I was at a friends house last winter. The family's 2 sons (aged 14 and 12) were outside shoveling snow off the driveway when they got into an argument about something. The elder one smacked the younger on the head with his shovel hard enough to knock him off his feet but thankfully not hard enough to do any real damage.
While speaking to this boy on a later occasion about this incident he told me. "It's OK for me to do bad things sometimes. I'm a Christian! Jesus has already paid for my sins so I am guaranteed a place in heaven."
Are we really bringing up our children with this kind of attitude?
PY

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 32 of 59 (174105)
01-05-2005 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by GreyOwl
01-04-2005 6:57 PM


Re: Vast differences in opinions?
What you say would explain why the phenomenon I mentioned occurs, but doesn't it still seem a bit odd? What else does ANYONE believe the existance of and yet has to constantly remind themselves that they do or constantly ask themselves why they believe it exists? Who knows, maybe there are other such things and I'm missing them...
At school I have to constantly remind myself why I am doing all this crap; because I believe someday it will pay off. I've never been in love very long, but I imagine that after 10 years of marriage a husband and wife may be tempted in various directions, and they must remind themselves of their devotion and vows to the other person. It is the same way with God.
I agree with Robin and Asgara. There is not just believing and unbelieving; there is a spectrum between the two. I think that where the person's desire lies is more important than what their mind has actually accepted as truth. In Mark, "The Child's father in tears cried out to Jesus, 'I believe, help my unbelief!'"
So, IMO, the person who strongly desires to believe in God and obey Him, but has a mind that is filled with doubt is better off than those who have never doubted with their minds, but desire Him not.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 59 (174120)
01-05-2005 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by 1.61803
01-04-2005 6:17 PM


Strawman Tactics
1.6083 writes:
Faith is believing something to be factual in the absence of evidence, logic, or reason. Faith is self imposed ignorance. IMO.
This is the kind of comment that leads to me to think that a lot of the dismissal of religious belief that I've seen on this forum consists of setting up a strawman--a childlike belief or belief of a stupid person, and attacking that instead of discussing and criticizing what an educated religious belief consists of.
It's like attacking science on the basis of a ten year old's explanation of science.
There is "evidence" to encourage belief though not scientific evidence.
And I don't think one can reply that we never make use of unscientific evidence in making up our minds about things in our life. We do it every day.
Should I take this job?
Should I marry this person?
Should I do this, that, or the other?
How do we make up out minds? We use common sense and feelings, and the shifting sands of circumstantial evidence of one sort or the other.
Now why would a religious belief keep us ignorant? No reason that I can see. Why wouldn't an intelligent religious person want to learn as much as a non-religious person?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-05-2005 13:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 34 of 59 (174135)
01-05-2005 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by robinrohan
01-05-2005 1:25 PM


Re: Strawman Tactics
Hello
robinrohan writes:
This is the kind of comment that leads to me think(sic).that a lot of the dismissal of religious belief that I've seen on this forum consist of setting up a strawman--a child like belief or belief of a stupid person, and attacking that instead of discussing and criticizing what an educated religious belief consist of.
First off I ended my comment with ( IMO ) Which stands for In My Opinion. I also did not make any mention of religion. But I'll bite just what in your opinion is a "educated religious belief and how does it differ as opposed to an uneducated one?
Secondly, site an example of a strawman rebuttal or argument made on this forum that attacks someones religious beliefs. Show a link, or site a quote please. I believe the people here do a good job not commiting logical fallacys of Strawman arguments on this forum.
robinrohan writes:
It's like attacking science on the basis of a ten year old's explanation of science.
I have not seen anyone "attack" anyone who does not make outrageous unsupportable claims regardless of age. I would not dismiss anything someone said if they could adequateley support they're claim. Opinions are just that but claims must be supported by evidence or face scrutiny.
robinrohan writes:
There is "evidence" to encourage belief though not scientific evidence.
And this has to do with what exactley? I fully agree with this statement. But this has nothing to do with FAITH. FAITH is believing in the absence of evidence. But BELIEF is not the same thing as FAITH. I believe if I drop a anvil on my foot it will hurt. What evidence do I have to support that? past experience makes me BELIEVE it will hurt. I have FAITH that if I drop this anvil God will protect my foot. what evidence to I have to support this claim? none..I have FAITH and because I have faith I BELIEVE it. Hence the term: a leap of faith.
robinrohan writes:
And I don't think one can reply that we never make use of unscientific evidence in making up our minds about things in our life. We do it every day.
I agree who made such a claim that humans do not make use of unscientific evidence to make up ones mind? Name a name or show a quote please.
robinrohan writes:
Now why would a religious belief keep us ignorant? No reason that I can see.
Well let me list a few :
Creationism
Geocentrism
Miracles
Biblical contradictions
The Crusades
The Spanish Inquisition
The Witch hunts
Jim Jones
David Koresh
and this is just Christianity .

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 59 (174138)
01-05-2005 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by 1.61803
01-05-2005 2:09 PM


Re: Strawman Tactics
1.61803 writes:
But this has nothing to do with FAITH. FAITH is believing in the absence of evidence. But BELIEF is not the same thing as FAITH. I believe if I drop a anvil on my foot it will hurt. What evidence do I have to support that? past experience makes me BELIEVE it will hurt. I have FAITH that if I drop this anvil God will protect my foot. what evidence to I have to support this claim? none..I have FAITH and because I have faith I BELIEVE it. Hence the term: a leap of faith.
This is exactly the sort of idea I am talking about when I say you don't understand anything about religious belief if you think that "faith" means believing something with no evidence.
Nobody believes something with the knowledge that they have no evidence. They think they have evidence. They may be mistaken of course.
This is the childlike version of religious belief that I was talking about. A 5 year old might "believe" with no evidence but no grown up would unless they are stupid or crazy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by 1.61803, posted 01-05-2005 2:09 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 38 by 1.61803, posted 01-05-2005 2:46 PM robinrohan has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 36 of 59 (174139)
01-05-2005 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by robinrohan
01-05-2005 2:21 PM


Re: Strawman Tactics
This is the childlike version of religious belief that I was talking about. A 5 year old might "believe" with no evidence but no grown up would unless they are stupid or crazy.
Well you said it! Please present evidence that any religion is valid or that any god(s) exist. There doesn't see to be any real evidence, just lots of opinions and faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by robinrohan, posted 01-05-2005 2:21 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 59 (174141)
01-05-2005 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by kjsimons
01-05-2005 2:29 PM


Re: Strawman Tactics
kjsimons writes:
There doesn't see to be any real evidence, just lots of opinions and faith.
If by "real evidence" you mean scientific evidence, there is none.
If by "real evidence" you mean the non-scientific sort, I will do that but I am not going to waste my time on close-minded people who are just here to mock religious belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by kjsimons, posted 01-05-2005 2:29 PM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by kjsimons, posted 01-05-2005 2:53 PM robinrohan has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 38 of 59 (174144)
01-05-2005 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by robinrohan
01-05-2005 2:21 PM


Re: Strawman Tactics
robinrohan writes:
This is exactly the sort of idea I am talking about when I say you don't understand anything about religious belief if you think that " faith" means believing something with no evidence.
REEAAALLLLLYYYYY!!!????!!
Well well well lets see???
Then why do people have faith the Earth is only 6 thousand years old?
Why there was a Global flood?
Why a human can walk on water?
Why a woman can concieve without sex?
Why there is a place called hell?
Why there is a place called heaven?
Why there is a entity called God?
Why there is a thing called sin?
The list is endless.....I will await the Evidence.
here are a few links to help you understand : the word FAITH
Page not found | The Bible App | Bible.com
Faith - Wikipedia
Faith Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 39 of 59 (174145)
01-05-2005 2:47 PM


Topicality
I "believe" the topic of this thread revolves around people believing because it is assumed that they will. It is not the existence or non of the being to believe in. Let's keep it topical folks.

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 40 of 59 (174146)
01-05-2005 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by AdminAsgara
01-05-2005 2:47 PM


Re: Topicality
I apologize. I should not of taken the bait.

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kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 41 of 59 (174149)
01-05-2005 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by robinrohan
01-05-2005 2:37 PM


Re: Strawman Tactics
If by "real evidence" you mean the non-scientific sort, I will do that but I am not going to waste my time on close-minded people who are just here to mock religious belief.
I'm not close minded and I'm not here to mock religious beliefs, I just truly don't understand how an educated adult person can possible be religious. Maybe I just don't have a religion gene or maybe I'm just more rational and less emotional than most. I just don't know. Religion (IMO) is literally irrational. Non-scientific evidence isn't valid for building rational or logical arguments with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by robinrohan, posted 01-05-2005 2:37 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 59 (174156)
01-05-2005 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by kjsimons
01-05-2005 2:53 PM


Re: Strawman Tactics
kjsimons writes:
Non-scientific evidence isn't valid for building rational or logical arguments with.
We do it all the time in our daily lives. We have to. That's all we got--non-scientific evidence.
Somebody is offered a new job and he has to make a decision whether to leave his old job and take the new one. He examines all the "evidence" and makes a decision. Are you saying that this is an irrational procedure?

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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 43 of 59 (174159)
01-05-2005 3:24 PM


Back on Track?
To help get this topic back on track I want to post a quote I found on TWeb.
Those who say that they believe in God and yet neither love nor fear him, do not in fact believe in him but in those who have taught them that God exists. Those who believe that they believe in God, but without any passion in their heart, any anguish of mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, without an element of despair even in their consolation, believe only in the God-idea, not God.
Miguel De Unamuno

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 44 of 59 (174160)
01-05-2005 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Asgara
01-05-2005 3:24 PM


Re: Back on Track?
"Beer is proof that God exist and wants us to be happy."
Benjamin Franklin
This message has been edited by 1.61803, 01-05-2005 15:28 AM

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kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 45 of 59 (174167)
01-05-2005 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by robinrohan
01-05-2005 3:21 PM


Re: Strawman Tactics
Somebody is offered a new job and he has to make a decision whether to leave his old job and take the new one. He examines all the "evidence" and makes a decision. Are you saying that this is an irrational procedure?
Yes, to a point. Most people make decisions like that based somewhat on emotionals and somewhat on rational thought, that is what it is to be human. In you example there isn't necessarily just evidence going into the mix, there is how he 'feels' about the job, the people, the location, etc. These aren't evidence, they're emotions.

This message is a reply to:
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