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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 346 of 531 (871324)
01-31-2020 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by Phat
01-31-2020 4:39 PM


Re: Cult
Phat writes:
Hypothetically, what would you do if reality proved that ultimately God was alive through the Holy Spirit, only a few stumbled upon this truth (either by accident or design) and the believers had a handicap of ignorance while the truly smart ones didn't allow themselves to believe in such a God?
Sheesh Phat. Why do you keep posting such silly, silly stuff.
If something is supported by sufficient evidence then I accept that it is supported.
Phat writes:
In other words, what if its not simply what we *do* but on how we treat each other and find a communion to relate to such a God? Or would you simply laugh in His face? Would we be judged on how we treated the planet and tried to preserve life for others? Would we be judged on how we reacted to money? Would we be judged based on how we responded to God as we understood Him?
Only the conmen and snake oil salesmen even try to market answers to such questions. Nobody knows Phat and no one alive will ever know.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 4:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 5:07 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 347 of 531 (871325)
01-31-2020 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by jar
01-31-2020 5:02 PM


Re: Cult (jarstyle)
So, in essence, you have confirmed your belief. Correct me if I misrepresent it.
Essentially, you believe that nobody can ever know God.
Your idea of belief centers on what you believe happens after you die.
You believe that God is unknowable.
All Christians who do not acknowledge your "obvious" logic are duped by conmen.
In reality, they are fooling themselves.
Got it. No wonder we always disagree.
If something is supported by sufficient evidence then I accept that it is supported.
Believers have sufficient evidence based on experience.
Though we acknowledge "conmen" in organized religion, we in no way agree with you that it is so widespread as to include everyone that believes God is alive through Christ. The fact is that there will never be evidence in the scientific sense.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by jar, posted 01-31-2020 5:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by jar, posted 01-31-2020 6:12 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 348 of 531 (871329)
01-31-2020 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by Phat
01-31-2020 5:07 PM


Re: Cult (jarstyle)
Phat writes:
Essentially, you believe that nobody can ever know God.
No Phat, I have said repeatedly that no one has ever expained how someone could know God and that all the evidence shows that people describe entirely different critters as being God.
Phat writes:
Your idea of belief centers on what you believe happens after you die.
No Phat, I believe that there is a GOD, creator of all seen and unseen and that I will be judged after I die.
Phat writes:
You believe that God is unknowable.
No Phat, I acknowledge that no one has ever explained how it might be possible to know God.
Phat writes:
All Christians who do not acknowledge your "obvious" logic are duped by conmen.
No Phat, those who buy the snake oil that directly contradicts what is actually written in the Bible or who make claims that cannot be verified are willingly being suckers.
Phat writes:
In reality, they are fooling themselves.
Final, you did get one correct.
Phat writes:
Believers have sufficient evidence based on experience.
Yet they do not ever present any evidence.
Edited by jar, : applin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 5:07 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 349 of 531 (871330)
01-31-2020 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Phat
01-31-2020 3:59 PM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
Phat writes:
...it is not because of what we were taught so much as it is what we experienced.
And you interpreted your experience the way you were taught to interpret it.
Phat writes:
They simply can't grasp the idea that God may be the same globally,
And you simply can't grasp the idea that IF God exists, it would be an immense coincidence if He happened to be anything like the God you learned about.
Phat writes:
... but among these believers, there is little if any controversy.
Among most groups of believers there is little controversy - Mormons, Scientologists, etc. One of the hallmarks of a cult is lack of controversy.
Phat writes:
Because there is only one explanation.
Nonsense.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 3:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 11:15 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 350 of 531 (871355)
02-01-2020 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by ringo
01-31-2020 7:02 PM


Tot For tat starring ringo and phat.
Phat writes:
...it is not because of what we were taught so much as it is what we experienced.
ringo writes:
And you interpreted your experience the way you were taught to interpret it.
No, we interpreted our experience based on what we felt while experiencing it. You can easily teach a parishioner to jump up and down and act excited, but you cannot give them the will to do it. That is up to how they feel about the experience.
Phat writes:
They simply can't grasp the idea that God may be the same globally,
And you simply can't grasp the idea that IF God exists, it would be an immense coincidence if He happened to be anything like the God you learned about.
What if He sought us out? After all, there is really only one of him. It's not like we are in a Hollywood audition where a roomful of Gods awaits approval. We experienced God. Of course, we know that He is more than we have been taught. Our intuition and shared experience, coupled with positive testimonies the world over convince us that God is good rather than schizophrenic and evil as you suggest scripture itself supports.
Among most groups of believers there is little controversy - Mormons, Scientologists, etc. One of the hallmarks of a cult is lack of controversy.
Yet you cant label 2 billion Christians, or perhaps 500,000 of them who agree that Jesus is alive today, as a cult.
Phat writes:
Because there is only one explanation.
Nonsense
I'd like to hear others. I will then tell you whether I would consider them acceptable. We choose our beliefs and become the decisions that we make.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by ringo, posted 01-31-2020 7:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by ringo, posted 02-01-2020 11:46 AM Phat has replied
 Message 352 by jar, posted 02-01-2020 12:48 PM Phat has replied
 Message 383 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2020 11:17 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 351 of 531 (871358)
02-01-2020 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by Phat
02-01-2020 11:15 AM


Re: Tot For tat starring ringo and phat.
Phat writes:
No, we interpreted our experience based on what we felt while experiencing it.
That's circular.
Phat writes:
You can easily teach a parishioner to jump up and down and act excited, but you cannot give them the will to do it.
On the contrary, it is much easier to encourage somebody to fit in by conforming with everybody else.
Phat writes:
What if He sought us out?
As I have said before, you'd have to have a monumental ego to believe that a god would seek you out and ignore billions of others.
Phat writes:
After all, there is really only one of him.
That has not been established. There's nothing in your "experiences" to indicate that. It's just something that your handlers have told you to parrot.
Phat writes:
We experienced God.
You experienced something. So did Muhammad. There's no reason to think your experience was different from his.
Phat writes:
... God is good rather than schizophrenic and evil as you suggest scripture itself supports.
And yet you don't even try to support your claim.
Phat writes:
Yet you cant label 2 billion Christians, or perhaps 500,000 of them who agree that Jesus is alive today, as a cult.
I'm not. I'm labellng your version as a cult.
Phat writes:
Because there is only one explanation.
ringo writes:
Nonsense
I'd like to hear others.
The context is Message 335: "This is what bugs me most about believers. If there are things in life that are "unexplained", why do you insist on explaining them? And why do you refuse to accept any explanation but your own?"
Some other explanations include
  • other gods: Aten, Baal, Cthulu, Dagon... Zeus
  • aliens
  • mental illness
  • plain old being wrong
Phat writes:
I will then tell you whether I would consider them acceptable.
Nobody cares what you consider acceptable.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 11:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 3:17 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 352 of 531 (871360)
02-01-2020 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Phat
02-01-2020 11:15 AM


Think Phat, think!
Phat writes:
I will then tell you whether I would consider them acceptable.
Neither truth or reality care whether or not you find them acceptable.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 11:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 2:56 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 353 of 531 (871369)
02-01-2020 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by jar
02-01-2020 12:48 PM


Re: Think Phat, think!
Neither truth nor reality is represented by anyone other than those involved.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by jar, posted 02-01-2020 12:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by jar, posted 02-01-2020 4:14 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 354 of 531 (871371)
02-01-2020 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by ringo
02-01-2020 11:46 AM


Re: Tit For Tat starring ringo and phat.
Phat writes:
Yet you cant label 2 billion Christians, or perhaps 5 million of them who agree that Jesus is alive today, interacts through prayer, and seeks to teach us more about reality, as a cult.
ringo writes:
I'm not. I'm labeling your version as a cult.
Oh so its *my* version now, is it? Based on my experience and on my own studies and conclusions, my explanation is what I will go with. No need to change horses in the middle of a stream.
ringo writes:
The context is Message 335.
Some other explanations include
  • other gods: Aten, Baal, Cthulu, Dagon... Zeus
  • Unlikely but hypothetically possible. Your side rejects them all en masse including my version, and my side rejects all but Jesus
    ringo writes:
  • aliens
  • admittedly possible. More study is needed in this area. For now, aliens are simply unevidenced and unexplained. I consider many of such sightings demonic, but that is my own subjective conclusion.
  • mental illness
  • entirely possible on an individual level. So far they have not come for me. If I ever suddenly disappear from EvC Forum, I will likely be in a hospital somewhere or a morgue.
  • plain old being wrong
  • Always possible. We each have our pet conclusion. In my mind, you and jar both suppressed belief because you were taught to only have evidence of supportable belief. Many others simply downed the kool-aid. Likely upwards of 5 million-plus...
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : further 'splainin

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 351 by ringo, posted 02-01-2020 11:46 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 362 by ringo, posted 02-02-2020 1:18 PM Phat has not replied

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 34136
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.3


    Message 355 of 531 (871378)
    02-01-2020 4:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 353 by Phat
    02-01-2020 2:56 PM


    Re: Think Phat, think!
    Phat writes:
    Neither truth nor reality is represented by anyone other than those involved.
    WHAT?
    That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever Phat. It does not even rise to the level of word salad.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 353 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 2:56 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 356 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 4:45 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
     Message 357 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 5:06 PM jar has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18450
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 356 of 531 (871379)
    02-01-2020 4:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 355 by jar
    02-01-2020 4:14 PM


    Re: Think Phat, think!
    Well, to be honest, I fired off a reply without thinking.
    Phat, replying to ringo writes:
    In my mind, you and jar both suppressed belief because you were taught to only have evidence of supportable belief.
    Truth or lies? Have I again misrepresented the great state of texas? Those Socratic masters taught you to think,(as did Joe Woods) which you encourage me to do...but one reason I stick to my guns on my basic belief is because of my all-too-real experiences and several confirmation biased events. Granted I prefer fantasy over reality, but I have a sneaky suspicion that this whole Armageddon, last days, the war of ideology stuff could pan out to be basically true. And again, I prefer a supernatural answer rather than a sobering and depressing answer such as "the bill will get paid even if many Americans suffer" and "The world will find us useful as gardeners, chauffers, and cooks".

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 355 by jar, posted 02-01-2020 4:14 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18450
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 357 of 531 (871380)
    02-01-2020 5:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 355 by jar
    02-01-2020 4:14 PM


    Re: Think Phat, think!
    And one further note: The Bill basically can't get paid without upending the entire financial system. Look at the evidence and crunch the numbers.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 355 by jar, posted 02-01-2020 4:14 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 358 by jar, posted 02-01-2020 5:52 PM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 34136
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.3


    Message 358 of 531 (871385)
    02-01-2020 5:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 357 by Phat
    02-01-2020 5:06 PM


    Re: Think Phat, think!
    Phat writes:
    The Bill basically can't get paid without upending the entire financial system.
    There are two ways the bill can be paid Phat, only one of those two ways is financial. The other way and the way it seems the US desires is through pain and suffering.
    But INMP!

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 357 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 5:06 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 359 by Phat, posted 02-02-2020 3:45 AM jar has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18450
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 359 of 531 (871397)
    02-02-2020 3:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 358 by jar
    02-01-2020 5:52 PM


    Re: Think Phat, think!
    But INMP!
    Oh yes, it is, or it will be when your money becomes as inflated and worthless as everyone else. You too will have to suffer a bit, but you have prepared better than most.
    jar writes:
    There are two ways the bill can be paid Phat, only one of those two ways is financial. The other way and the way it seems the US desires is through pain and suffering.
    Yes, it looks as if though there will be a lot of pain and suffering in the future. And I don't mean to sound all gloom and doom, as Tangle thinks all religious nutters are. I'm just realizing that the era in which I grew up, 1960-1990, was one of the most stable and prosperous eras in human history. (for a white male living in the United States.) And my family was never classified as wealthy. I can identify with the sociological forces that led to Populism and the rise of Trump.
    Though I don't really like or respect Trump, my Father would have likely loved him. When you couple these people--the Populists--with the religious Right, an earlier group founded on merging Biblical Christianity with Partisan Politics, you begin to see why Faith likes and respects Trump so much. It is about preserving the suburban fantasy of making America Great Again, as it was in the times in which I grew up. Personally, I am torn between preserving the fantasy and hoping that if reality must change, God owes it to us to help us accept the change knowing that He has the wheel. A deep and uneasy awareness tells me that I may be wrong on both counts.
    We have discussed this stuff too many times to count here at EvC. I enjoy discussing it only because I hope that I can change the minds of those who have thrown my God away. It would be nice if He came back in my life(time) and rewarded me with a safe and stable eternity. I really don't want to be supportive of white privilege, but I also don't want to be cast aside and marginalized and have to suffer the way that many ethnic people from many other nations and kingdoms have had to suffer for the past 500 years.
    But I take your arguments thoughtfully if not agreeably.
    Why should God favor me and my contemporaries who lived during the aberration? I reason that he should because He can and because the sins of our fathers were and are not our fault. You have argued that this attitude proves that I create the God I want, but I honestly believe that I have met God and that I am well aware that there is no way that He is exactly as I would think Him to be or as my society defined him as. What scares me is how different He may end up being.
    Of course, I don't believe as you do that He is complete. (Having good and evil attributes) and I don't care what scriptures you run past me regarding that. I believe in the ultimate good and ultimate justice. Honestly though, what scares me is that my own dogma which you usually laugh at shows me that there is a possibility that my nation will be judged and has heaped up and is heaping up a multitude of sins against humanity.
    Faith will argue that America has also done a lot of good in the world and that it is the evil leftists who push the other philosophy. As of now, while I agree that there are evil people in the world, I am unconvinced that they are any more Left than Right. They come in all shapes and sizes. Comments?
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : fixing a few glitches

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 358 by jar, posted 02-01-2020 5:52 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 360 by jar, posted 02-02-2020 10:04 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 361 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2020 12:17 PM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 34136
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.3


    Message 360 of 531 (871403)
    02-02-2020 10:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 359 by Phat
    02-02-2020 3:45 AM


    Re: Think Phat, think!
    Phat writes:
    Oh yes, it is, or it will be when your money becomes as inflated and worthless as everyone else. You too will have to suffer a bit, but you have prepared better than most.
    No Phat, I'm already well past the life expectancy of a male in the US so INMP.
    But as long as you and those like you continue to choose the pain option over the financial one, that will be how the bill gets paid.
    Phat writes:
    I reason that he should because He can and because the sins of our fathers were and are not our fault.
    That's a comforting fantasy, isn't it?

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 359 by Phat, posted 02-02-2020 3:45 AM Phat has not replied

      
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