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Author Topic:   How do you know truth?
John
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 114 (27657)
12-22-2002 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by forgiven
12-22-2002 1:50 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
i think you may be missing the point, john..
I wasn't addressing you point really, just pointing out something similar to what you describe.
quote:
i believe that in heaven such things will be normal, not abnormal (if they are abnormal now)...
I didn't understand that this is what you meant though. Mystics from all over claim to experience the same sorts of sensory wierdness, fyi.
quote:
i take it you'd pity the person who professes this ability?
I don't know really. I would imagine that it causes some dificulty for the person experiencing the phenomena. As such, I'd be sympathetic.
quote:
attribute it to mental illness of some sort?
If you mean insanity, I wouldn't call it that. But a disorder along the lines of epilepsy or dyslexia? I'd say it qualifies.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by forgiven, posted 12-22-2002 1:50 PM forgiven has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 114 (27691)
12-22-2002 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by forgiven
12-22-2002 1:50 PM


uh . . . Forgiven . . . I was talking about a mental image, not the beatific vision.
As regards, John, the definition of real, I am suggesting that my imaginary house is REALLY being imagined.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by forgiven, posted 12-22-2002 1:50 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by forgiven, posted 12-23-2002 6:47 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 79 by John, posted 12-23-2002 8:51 AM robinrohan has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 114 (27721)
12-23-2002 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by robinrohan
12-22-2002 8:41 PM


Originally posted by robinrohan:
uh . . . Forgiven . . . I was talking about a mental image, not the beatific vision.
As regards, John, the definition of real, I am suggesting that my imaginary house is REALLY being imagined.
i know, i thought that's what i was talking about too... the image is real and it isn't material, you created it because you have the ability to create.. i don't know robin, i think i may have to wait till i'm over this bug i have and can think without taking drugs... but i honestly thought i was explaining my thoughts on this subject when i said we are creators etc

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by robinrohan, posted 12-22-2002 8:41 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2002 4:49 PM forgiven has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 114 (27722)
12-23-2002 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by robinrohan
12-22-2002 8:41 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
As regards, John, the definition of real, I am suggesting that my imaginary house is REALLY being imagined.
I realize this. But... is what you see when you look out the window also imagined? The mechanisms seem to be the same.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by robinrohan, posted 12-22-2002 8:41 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2002 4:17 PM John has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 114 (27752)
12-23-2002 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by John
12-23-2002 8:51 AM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
As regards, John, the definition of real, I am suggesting that my imaginary house is REALLY being imagined.
I realize this. But... is what you see when you look out the window also imagined? The mechanisms seem to be the same.

John, when I look out the window I am looking at something physical. The mechanisms are not quite the same. I'm using my eyes when I look out the window. If you are suggesting that the pictorial mental image is physical, then it needs to be located some place in space.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by John, posted 12-23-2002 8:51 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by John, posted 12-24-2002 9:20 AM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 114 (27754)
12-23-2002 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by forgiven
12-23-2002 6:47 AM


Forgiven, I just thought you were making this whole thing out to be much more grand than I had in mind. I was just trying to figure out if there is such a thing as "mentality"--as something distinct from physicality. If not, there can be no free will as far as I can tell.
The definition of "real" is definitely problematical, as John rightly points out. Normally that which is imagined is not called "real"--I mean, not in ordinary usage. But I can't get over the fact that this imaginary house can't be called nothing either. And if it's not nothing it's something. So it must fleetingly exist. If it does not exist in space, then it must exist in some other way. So it's mental. But this is not to say that mentality is not dependent on the physical brain or that we can "create" this reality outside of merely imagining it or any of that stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by forgiven, posted 12-23-2002 6:47 AM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by forgiven, posted 12-24-2002 4:39 PM robinrohan has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 114 (27777)
12-24-2002 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by robinrohan
12-23-2002 4:17 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
John, when I look out the window I am looking at something physical. The mechanisms are not quite the same. I'm using my eyes when I look out the window. If you are suggesting that the pictorial mental image is physical, then it needs to be located some place in space.
Yes, but once light hits your eyeballs, everything is electronic. The image you see isn't external to you, it is the brain's interpretation of nerve firings. Those mechanisms, I suspect, are the same as when you imagine an image, instead of seeing one out your window.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2002 4:17 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by robinrohan, posted 12-24-2002 3:58 PM John has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 114 (27796)
12-24-2002 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by John
12-24-2002 9:20 AM


John, if a mental image exists, then it does so in the same sense that an abstract concept "exists." Definitely problematic, but could you call an abstract concept "physical"? You seem to be confusing causes with results.
Too much acid in the stomach causes feelings of discomfort, but "feelings of discomfort" is not the same thing as "too much acid in the stomach." Same thing with electric codes versus mental concepts or images.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by John, posted 12-24-2002 9:20 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by John, posted 12-25-2002 2:53 PM robinrohan has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 114 (27800)
12-24-2002 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by robinrohan
12-23-2002 4:49 PM


Originally posted by robinrohan:
Forgiven, I just thought you were making this whole thing out to be much more grand than I had in mind. I was just trying to figure out if there is such a thing as "mentality"--as something distinct from physicality. If not, there can be no free will as far as I can tell.
that's the trouble with drug-induced posts... if all that exists is the natural, the material, i agree with you that free will is an illusion... if there is such a thing as mentality *apart from* the material realm, free will exists... this is why people argue so vehemently against metaphysical concepts such as the soul... but they (imho) don't think on it deeply enough to see the end result of that philosophy, which at the very least causes massive inconsistencies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2002 4:49 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by robinrohan, posted 12-24-2002 5:18 PM forgiven has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 114 (27802)
12-24-2002 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by forgiven
12-24-2002 4:39 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
Forgiven, I just thought you were making this whole thing out to be much more grand than I had in mind. I was just trying to figure out if there is such a thing as "mentality"--as something distinct from physicality. If not, there can be no free will as far as I can tell.
that's the trouble with drug-induced posts... if all that exists is the natural, the material, i agree with you that free will is an illusion... if there is such a thing as mentality *apart from* the material realm, free will exists... this is why people argue so vehemently against metaphysical concepts such as the soul... but they (imho) don't think on it deeply enough to see the end result of that philosophy, which at the very least causes massive inconsistencies

I'm not so sure we can say that if we have mentality, we automatically have free will. But at least it would be possible. We would have something, possibly, to "choose with." Mentality would have to have a certain degree, even a tiny degree, of freedom from dependence on the physical. It could be, once it was worked out, that the very definition of mentality would include a certain degree of autonomy, as you suggest.
[This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-24-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by forgiven, posted 12-24-2002 4:39 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by forgiven, posted 12-24-2002 6:32 PM robinrohan has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 114 (27805)
12-24-2002 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by robinrohan
12-24-2002 5:18 PM


Originally posted by robinrohan:
I'm not so sure we can say that if we have mentality, we automatically have free will. But at least it would be possible. We would have something, possibly, to "choose with." Mentality would have to have a certain degree, even a tiny degree, of freedom from dependence on the physical. It could be, once it was worked out, that the very definition of mentality would include a certain degree of autonomy, as you suggest.
i sure hope you come to the conclusion that the mind isn't bounded by the material... i wish i knew how to help convince you of that... for an agnostic you are on the verge of believing in *something*... i'll pray for some words that might push you a little further (if you happen to read any you can assume they were given to me by someone/thing that is *also* unbounded by the material heh heh)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by robinrohan, posted 12-24-2002 5:18 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by robinrohan, posted 12-24-2002 7:04 PM forgiven has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 114 (27807)
12-24-2002 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by forgiven
12-24-2002 6:32 PM


I appreciate your prayers, Forgiven.
Now if I could just get John to pray for me, I might win the lottery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by forgiven, posted 12-24-2002 6:32 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by forgiven, posted 12-24-2002 9:08 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 114 (27809)
12-24-2002 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by robinrohan
12-24-2002 7:04 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
I appreciate your prayers, Forgiven.
Now if I could just get John to pray for me, I might win the lottery.

whoa here!!! the powerball (all $284 MILLION) is mine... mine and 8 co-workers... i'm not sure but that means *approximately* $31.55555555555555556 M is my share... approximately

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by robinrohan, posted 12-24-2002 7:04 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 114 (27842)
12-25-2002 2:34 PM


Does the answer lie in control?
If the ‘mental’ arises out of the physical, i.e. the brain, then can the ‘mental’ manipulate/control the physical? i.e. does it have the ability to make its choices manifest in the physical? if so, then where is the point of interaction? Does this not amount merely to supernatural intervention?
Which is in control, the ‘mental’ or the physical? Assuming that the mental is not merely an illusion.
If the physical is in control, and the mental is merely an anomaly of the physical, then there is no free will

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 114 (27847)
12-25-2002 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by robinrohan
12-24-2002 3:58 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
John, if a mental image exists, then it does so in the same sense that an abstract concept "exists."
Ok. What you seem to be missing is that all images are MENTAL images. Everything you see is a mental image. You don't see anything in its raw state. The brain interprets everything BEFORE it become the image you see. This is why optical illusions work. They screw with the brain's pre-processing routines.
Thus, the images you imagine and the images you see are formed via the same processes. Its just that the raw input is different.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by robinrohan, posted 12-24-2002 3:58 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 3:11 PM John has not replied
 Message 92 by robinrohan, posted 12-25-2002 3:29 PM John has not replied

  
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