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Author Topic:   can we trust the book of Mormon?
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 16 of 80 (157735)
11-09-2004 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by PecosGeorge
11-09-2004 4:51 PM


Moroni, the angel who appeared to Smith, was the son of Mormon, an elder of a Jewish tribe called the Nephites who had migrated to the Americas. Mormon was the one who had originally written the gospel.
Allegedly, while Joseph Smith was translating the infamous golden plates, John the Baptist appeared to him and ordained him to restore the true church by preaching and publishing the true gospel, which had been lost from the earth.
Now, if you happily accept that someone raises himself and others from the dead, heals lepers, ousts demons, walks on water, etc. why is John the Baptist appearing to help restore the true church a problem ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-09-2004 4:51 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-09-2004 8:40 PM Legend has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 17 of 80 (157737)
11-09-2004 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Robb
11-09-2004 2:09 PM


quote:
Deut. 4:2: Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. (NIV)
Prov. 30:6: Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar. (NIV)
Even if these verses are interpreted the way you interpret them, it still means nothing, as Mormons claim that the BoM is part of the scriptures, that was lost and re-discovered. It's not an addition to God's word, it is God's word.
**EDIT to add last sentence.
This message has been edited by Legend, 11-09-2004 06:39 PM

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Robb, posted 11-09-2004 2:09 PM Robb has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Robb
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 80 (157738)
11-09-2004 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by PaulK
11-09-2004 3:28 PM


quote:
No, you are missing the real problem. Deuteronomy doesn't give an explicit cut-off between "scripture" and "non-scripture". The only sensible way to read it as supplying an implict cut-off is to use the date of writing Deuteronomy. So how do you read Deuteronomy as excluding the Book of Mormon ?
I am assuming that all the books of the Bible are written by God. This can be debated, but assuming they are all written by God, then Duet. 4 (as well as Prov 30:5-6) applies to all Gods commands and not just in Duet. The Book of Mormon is a seperate book from the Bible and cannot be trusted to be Gods word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 11-09-2004 3:28 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 11-09-2004 6:32 PM Robb has replied
 Message 21 by Legend, posted 11-09-2004 6:36 PM Robb has not replied
 Message 31 by arachnophilia, posted 11-10-2004 2:39 AM Robb has not replied

  
Robb
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 80 (157740)
11-09-2004 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by PecosGeorge
11-09-2004 4:47 PM


Re: Revelation 22
quote:
Verse 18 and 19, may help to establish the fact that nothing is to be added or taken away from scripture. If you believe that God knew that scripture would be subject to tampering, then the warnings throughout the written word, should not fall victim to questioning.
And God knew that his word would be maligned in every shape and form possible.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of
the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these
things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in
this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the
book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the
book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things
which are written in this book.
Many think this is a warning for just the book of Revelation and not all the scriptures. "this book" is used to establish how this should be applied. I think that it can be applied to all of scripture as a principle outlined in other verses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-09-2004 4:47 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 20 of 80 (157741)
11-09-2004 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Robb
11-09-2004 6:20 PM


You're also assuming that the Book of Mormon is NOT written by God. And you can't get that from Deuteronomy. But Mormons don't make the distinction between the Bible and the BoM that you do - both are scripture and the arguments for regarding one as the Word of God apply equally to the other.
So it is not Deuteronomy that is the issue - but your starting assumption that the BoM is not scripture versus the LDS assumption that it is. The only way to make Deuteronomy an issue is to argue that it supports your assumption over the Mormon assumption - but that gets you right back to the problems I identified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Robb, posted 11-09-2004 6:20 PM Robb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Robb, posted 11-09-2004 6:50 PM PaulK has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 21 of 80 (157742)
11-09-2004 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Robb
11-09-2004 6:20 PM


quote:
The Book of Mormon is a seperate book from the Bible and cannot be trusted to be Gods word
Nope, according to the Mormon church the BoM is just another part of God's word.
Tell me, how can you trust that, say, Luke's Gospel is God's word ? What are your criteria for determining what is God's word ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Robb, posted 11-09-2004 6:20 PM Robb has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 11-10-2004 2:45 AM Legend has replied

  
Robb
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 80 (157744)
11-09-2004 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by PaulK
11-09-2004 6:32 PM


quote:
You're also assuming that the Book of Mormon is NOT written by God. And you can't get that from Deuteronomy. But Mormons don't make the distinction between the Bible and the BoM that you do - both are scripture and the arguments for regarding one as the Word of God apply equally to the other.
So it is not Deuteronomy that is the issue - but your starting assumption that the BoM is not scripture versus the LDS assumption that it is. The only way to make Deuteronomy an issue is to argue that it supports your assumption over the Mormon assumption - but that gets you right back to the problems I identified.
Maybe I am going in circles but I will try again. Mormons admit that the BoM is another testiment of Jesus Christ. If the Bible is true, as Mormons beleive, then they have added to the word of God. I still don't see how both can be true according to the Bible. Do Mormons beleive that the BoM is part of the Bible or another book of Jesus Christ? Maybe this is where I am misunderstanding what Mormons beleive.
This message has been edited by Robb, 11-09-2004 06:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 11-09-2004 6:32 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 11-09-2004 7:45 PM Robb has replied
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 11-10-2004 2:37 AM Robb has not replied

  
asciikerr
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 80 (157754)
11-09-2004 7:37 PM


Do we even have Mormons on this board? Seems hardly fair to get into what they believe w/o having one of them represent their beliefs.

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by 1.61803, posted 11-09-2004 9:58 PM asciikerr has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 80 (157756)
11-09-2004 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Robb
11-09-2004 6:50 PM


Maybe we need to step back just a little
Robb, do you believe that there is one Christian Bible?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 22 by Robb, posted 11-09-2004 6:50 PM Robb has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 40 by Robb, posted 11-10-2004 10:07 AM jar has replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 25 of 80 (157768)
11-09-2004 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Legend
11-09-2004 6:05 PM


Very simply
that you are comparing apples with oranges. John was hardly a Christ, who took up his life after he relinquished it. John cannot do that.
What you are suggesting is called spiritism, a practice severely chastised especially in old testament times when God warned not to seek information from wizards that peep. One of the reasons Saul, the first king of Israel, lost his kingdom is because he consulted the witch of endor, who conjured up someone who looked like the Prophet Samuel. The baptist is dead, he was dust, to dust he returned, and he will never again know anything that transpires on this earth until the resurrection and that takes place at Christ's second coming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Legend, posted 11-09-2004 6:05 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Legend, posted 11-10-2004 5:59 AM PecosGeorge has replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 26 of 80 (157769)
11-09-2004 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Robb
11-09-2004 6:30 PM


Re: Revelation 22
And then some, Brother.
Thank you.
Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but you are subject to the Spirit of God, who imparts knowledge when it is sought, and wisdom, and all understanding of what is correct.
Godspeed to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Robb, posted 11-09-2004 6:30 PM Robb has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 27 of 80 (157788)
11-09-2004 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by asciikerr
11-09-2004 7:37 PM


I agree with you asciikerr, put not to worry the mormon faith has been adequately bashed here in the past Without representation. EvC is equal opportunity.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by asciikerr, posted 11-09-2004 7:37 PM asciikerr has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 80 (157825)
11-10-2004 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by PecosGeorge
11-09-2004 4:46 PM


Re: Revelation 22
Revelation 22 Verse 18 and 19, may help to establish the fact that nothing is to be added or taken away from scripture.
similar verses are to be had throughout the bible. which one do you trust?
If you believe that God knew that scripture would be subject to tampering, then the warnings throughout the written word, should not fall victim to questioning.
yes, they should. in fact, it should make you question the authenticity of anything written after that verse. question EVERYTHING. there's much more to be had in the bible if you think about it and ask questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-09-2004 4:46 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-10-2004 8:36 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 29 of 80 (157826)
11-10-2004 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Legend
11-09-2004 6:13 PM


as Mormons claim that the BoM is part of the scriptures, that was lost and re-discovered. It's not an addition to God's word, it is God's word.
this is true. the claimed date for the book is 600 bc, which is still during the old testament period.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Legend, posted 11-09-2004 6:13 PM Legend has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 30 of 80 (157828)
11-10-2004 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Robb
11-09-2004 6:50 PM


The BoM is "adding to the Bible" in the same way that the NT is "adding to the Bible".
You have accepted that Deuteronomy does not mean that there will be no more scriptures written. So the question comes down to whether the BoM is scripture. Mormons say yes. You say no. Deuteronomy says neither.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Robb, posted 11-09-2004 6:50 PM Robb has not replied

  
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