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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5521 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Alan Alda's polio | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5521 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
jar writes:
Probably not. But what's your point? Can you make a case that polio is more prevalent in those countries without widespread indoor plumbing and sanitation? Can you make a case that infant mortality is lower in those countries without widespread indoor plumbing and sanitation? ”HM
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
LOL
That is irrelevant. The point is that sanitation along with other advances reduces infant mortality rates. If you want I can also link to overall mortality rates. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
But is there no other road back to The Garden than the one paved with drugs? I suppose it's possible that Huxley's Doors of Perception are now open like cans of worms. Is there any hope of herding back into the can? Will all real men someday take Viagra to pork their honies up the wall? I'm unclear on what you are asking/questioning. Is this an argument for holistic medicine vs pharmecuetical drugs, or an argument against the best mode of health care? "It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5521 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
nj writes:
Good question. It's an argument against the common notion in America that drugs are the best way to attain good health and success. Yes, sometimes pills and shots are necessary. But if pills are deemed too necessary to make you slimmer, bigger, smaller, tighter, faster, sexier, more beautiful, or more healthy, then I have to ask if that is good thing for our society. I don't believe it is. I think our society is teaching our children that drugs will get them where they want to go. There's a "Drug War" here against recreational street drugs. And they will take your home away and sell if for cash if you happen to grow pot in it. But if you're a member of the medical-pharmaceutical complex you can make and use recreational drugs 'til the cows come home”hallucinogens, euphoriants, steroids, anti-depressants, Viagra, you name it”and nobody will bother you. Sure, and just as those drugs circulate expensively through our local pharmacies, homes, bathrooms, and bedrooms, they go right down the street to our schools. I'm unclear on what you are asking/questioning. Is this an argument for holistic medicine vs pharmecuetical drugs, or an argument against the best mode of health care? I have chosen an Austrlian bush nurse to illustrate my point: There are other roads to good health and sound minds than the ones that go down your throat with a class of water and a contribution to the drug industry. Commercial medicine in America”what else would you expect from capitalism? I'm watching biological evolution happen in a human population...”>Homo pharmaceuticus americus. We have turned to chemistry for our social values. Along with that, personal responisbilty goes right out the window, because you don't have to do anything except take a goddamn pill...and, boy, will she'll be glad you did! Yes! Call it "holoistic medicine" if you like. But vitamin supplements, a staple of holistic medicine, are part of the pill problem too. Most of those "supplements" do absolutely nothing for you...just sh!t through a goose. But that's all part of consumer-driven capitalism, isn't it? Beware of "holistic medicine" too. Better to quit eating organic pizza and take up yoga. I guarantee your love bunny will get excited over that. Sister Kinney did eventually gain respect for her therapeutic methods. So did Moshé Feldenkrais for treating stroke and cerebral palsy. And yoga is also taught and respected in America, but not enough. Yoga can relieve many symptoms that otherwise require drugs. But who's going to make any money on breathing air in and out? The air is free in most places. I don't yet see a thriving yoga industry in America to rival that of drugs. Yet yoga actually can relief stress and a host of other health problems. Odd, isn't it, that yoga is not taught routinely in K-12 public schools? (Maybe this Buddha stuff is threatening to a "Christian society," or maybe it is threatening to the drug industry.) ”HM
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Hoot, Message 13:
Oh, come on! I never said "...personal 'hate'". So you are misquoting me and your credibility goes down with that. Hoot, Message 1:
the medical establishment in Sister Kinney's own country hated and vilified her. Hated her, you said.
I was writing to a street audience in street vernacular, not to an audience of linguistic psychologists. I leave it to you to explain how linguistic psychologists make the distinction between hating a person and personal hate. I confess this esoteric distinction escapes my simple understanding of the street vernacular. _____ Edited by Archer Opterix, : html Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Hoot: Sure it's possible. I didn't ask you if it was possible that some of Kinney's contemporaries were genuinely alarmed. I know it is. It is a possibility that exists as a matter of reason. It remains on the table until it can be rationally ruled out. That's why I asked you to address this possibility. Your OP never mentions it. On what rational basis did you rule it out of the discussion? How did you conclude the findings of that Australian medical inquiry were invalid? I look forward to reading your objective analysis of the research. ____ Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Hoot: Yoga can relieve many symptoms that otherwise require drugs. But who's going to make any money on breathing air in and out? Yoga instructors.
I don't yet see a thriving yoga industry in America to rival that of drugs. This will begin to improve today, though, when you start paying your yoga instructor the same money you would pay an MD.
(Maybe this Buddha stuff is threatening to a "Christian society," or maybe it is threatening to the drug industry.) Yoga would be Hindu stuff. ___ Archer All species are transitional.
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5521 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
AO writes:
How do you get "personal hate," as you put it, from an establishment? Here's what I said in the OP in Message 1:
I leave it to you to explain how linguistic psychologists make the distinction between hating a person and personal hate. I confess this esoteric distinction escapes my simple understanding of the street vernacular. HM writes:
How can you assign "personal hate" to an "establishment"? I assigned the psychological metaphor "hate"”commonly used in ordinary discourse”to what an establishment clearly showed, not to what any individual person declared. And I personally witnessed that institutional "hatred." Were you you there? What did you witness? Now, the medical establishment in Sister Kinney's own country hated and vilified her. Wiki says:
quote: The medical establishment in the United States also hated her, sniping at her credentials and discouraging her approach to treating polio. Instead the US medical establishment joined up with the US pharmaceutical establishment to lead the fight against polio and find a drug to cure it or develop a vaccine. Of course this was an epic milestone in sainthood of American medicine. ”HM
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Hoot Mon writes: And I personally witnessed that institutional "hatred." Were you you there? What did you witness? Nobody cares what you personally witnessed. Show us the evidence. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5521 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Ringo writes:
Yikes! That's exactly what the neo-Nazis are saying to the Holocaust vicims. Nobody cares what you personally witnessed. Show us the evidence. ”HM
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Hoot Mon writes: quote: That's exactly what the neo-Nazis are saying to the Holocaust vicims. The Holocaust victims showed the evidence. Please follow their example. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
How can you assign "personal hate" to an "establishment"? Of course, that was not what was alleged except by you anyway. Your OP stated that the establishment hated her personally. The facts and evidence though says otherwise. As has been pointed out to you, her methods were adopted across Australia, she went to England where her methods were adopted and she then came to the US where her methods were adopted.
And I personally witnessed that institutional "hatred." Well, not based on what you have said here. So far all you have presented is the allegation that your family doctor may have "hated". Your anecdotal story is all that stands against the actual evidence of the various clinics she helped start and the support she received even from the Government who produced the one alleged negative report. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5521 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
jar writes:
But, jar, I can't disagree with that. Who could? I'm sure sanitation causes does more good things than bad to public health. I'm saying that sometimes bad things happen to public health as a result of good intentions. Endrin, DDT, tributyltin, et al. were all introduced with good public-health intentions...and good commercial intentions, as well. "Better things for better living through chemistry." And now the bald eagles are coming back and our children are eating less dirt contamninated with said same polloutants. And once upon a time the parmaceutical cure for polio may have unwittingly set off another epidemic for the drugs companies to profit from. Medicine is not science; it often blunders ahead violating its own principle: "First, do no harm." That is irrelevant. The point is that sanitation along with other advances reduces infant mortality rates. If you want I can also link to overall mortality rates. And on that principle I measure the relative value of America's medical establishment. But what can it really do about my complaint in a society driven by capitalistic principles? Doctors are not to blame, not most of them. It's the driving principles of our social order that deserve our scrunity. And so I remember Sister Kinney with her cheap hot blankets and physical therapy”a simple bush nurse who made no contribution whatsoever to the AIDS epidemic. ”HM
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And so I remember Sister Kinney with her cheap hot blankets and physical therapy”a simple bush nurse who made no contribution whatsoever to the AIDS epidemic. She also made no contribution to curing aids, Hoot. Her contribution, and it was a major one, dealt with treating the symptoms of Polio and with the rehabilitation of those afflicted. Nothing she did would cure polio or help those where the CNS was affected to the extent of diaphragm paralysis. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5521 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Percy writes:
There was enough controversy over Sister Kinney and her struggle for acceptance by the American medical establishment back then for Hollywood to poke its nose into the affair. As you know, Hollywood is a distorted mirror unto America, but its highly biased products are nevertheless reflections of certain attitudes of the time. Not everyone's attitude, mind you. But the sentiments were there, and I was there, and I believe Sister Kinney was often despised by the medical establishment. The Holocaust victims showed the evidence. Please follow their example. Exhibit A: On September 30, 1946, TIME magazine printed this movie review of "Sister Kinney", played by Rosalind Russell. Read it and you can see what one critic saw in this "propaganda" film. I never saw the film. But I remember the controversy and scorn of Sister Kinney at a time when American medicine was aligning itself with drug companies and showed remarkable success with antibiotics. We all were grateful for those. More and more, drugs were becoming the answer. And Sister Kinney was regarded as dangerously old-school and out of fashion with this amazing new promise of shots and pills. Now, I know you'll say Exhibit A is not good enough evidence. It's only a movie with a bucksome babe in it to titallate us more than educate us. Sure it is. But, damn it, some of us got titallated and some of us got educated. If you reject my personal testamony as evidence, Ringo, then you would likewise reject Anne Frank's. ”HM
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