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Author Topic:   Sky Daddy Cult
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 43 (735321)
08-11-2014 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
08-10-2014 6:11 PM


Re: Independence or Inter-Dependence?
Phat writes:
You, however, may have a different form of communion---perhaps one such as Stiles that involves only humans.
If there's no detectable difference between communing with God and communing with humans, what's the point of (pretending you're) communing with God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 08-10-2014 6:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-11-2014 3:21 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 43 (735327)
08-11-2014 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by NoNukes
08-11-2014 9:09 AM


Re: More Scriptural References
Labeling Christians "spiritually lazy" and "helpless" is so close to being derisive and disdainful as to be indistinguishable from them.
Which might be valid had he done so, but he didn't. He pointed out that many Christians are "spiritually lazy" and "helpless" which is simply a reasonable observation. Their beliefs deserve pity more than anything else.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2014 9:09 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2014 2:51 PM jar has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 33 of 43 (735331)
08-11-2014 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
08-11-2014 11:33 AM


Re: Independence or Inter-Dependence?
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
Phat writes:
perhaps one such as Stile's that involves only humans
Is that how I come off? That's... unfortunate.
Unfortunate? No...just unique and relative to you the individual. Am I incorrect in my assessment?
Perhaps not, it depends on specifically what your assessment is
When people say God is required to be spiritual.. I try to mention that spirituality of the highest experienced levels can be fully achieved by only involving humans.
I do not mean to imply that my personal spirituality only involves humans.
I do not mean to imply that the best levels of spirituality only involve humans and no Gods. They will for some people, and won't for others.
You tend to say things as to imply that God is required for certain aspects of life.
I just counter by informing you that if God is required, the requirement is not obvious and can even be ignored to obtain those same aspects of life. As shown by those who do not believe in God and yet do still fully experience those valued areas in their lives.
If you happened to go around saying things that implied people must be removed from God in order to attain certain things in life... I would then inform you that this isn't true either. Many people invoke their God(s) to gain the same things in life.
I try to promote a balance that works for the individual. A cursory look at the world shows that one-explanation simply doesn't explain all people's experiences.
I understand that my responses to you seem one-sided... but that is more because your position is one-sided than because I'm actually advocating a certain side

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 08-11-2014 11:33 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 43 (735333)
08-11-2014 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
08-11-2014 1:17 PM


Re: More Scriptural References
Which might be valid had he done so, but he didn't. He pointed out that many Christians are "spiritually lazy" and "helpless" which is simply a reasonable observation. Their beliefs deserve pity more than anything else.
In particular, he associated lazy and helpless Christians with the term Sky Daddy Cult. That's what I am calling a derisive title. Then he said that the title was not derisive, which does not make sense despite your attempt to help out.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 08-11-2014 1:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-11-2014 3:10 PM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 43 (735336)
08-11-2014 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by NoNukes
08-11-2014 2:51 PM


Re: More Scriptural References
And should they not be treated with derision?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2014 2:51 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 08-11-2014 3:24 PM jar has replied
 Message 41 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2014 9:17 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 43 (735337)
08-11-2014 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
08-11-2014 11:51 AM


Re: Independence or Inter-Dependence?
If there's no detectable difference between communing with God and communing with humans, what's the point of (pretending you're) communing with God?
For one thing, Jesus advocated it. Within the context of my belief, there is no pretending. God exists despite no detection.
jar writes:
You keep saying that but never explain how it happens or how you can know you are communicating with God.
I can't explain how it happens. I believe that God exists and is always present.
I also agree that GOD is far far beyond any human comprehension---this I cannot explain any more than I can comprehend. Could Ringo be right in that I am pretending? Yes, it may be possible that I am wrong. When I prayed with my friends family at the hospice, it was for their comfort and thus had value even if GOD did not exist. I believe, however, that He does exist and desires communion with us.
|

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 08-11-2014 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2014 3:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 08-12-2014 11:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 43 (735338)
08-11-2014 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
08-11-2014 3:10 PM


Re: More Scriptural References
Why?
Derision=contemptuous ridicule or mockery.
Explain why we should ridicule and mock these people again? I don't see why it is charged for us to do. The scripture always told me to "bless those who curse me"....

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-11-2014 3:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 08-11-2014 6:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 38 of 43 (735341)
08-11-2014 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
08-11-2014 3:21 PM


Re: Independence or Inter-Dependence?
You've just said:
God exists despite no detection
I can't explain how it happens
I also agree that GOD is far far beyond any human comprehension
this I cannot explain any more than I can comprehend.
and then you say this:
I believe, however, that He does exist and desires communion with us.
This is pretty much a description of why religious belief is utter bollocks.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-11-2014 3:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 43 (735342)
08-11-2014 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by NoNukes
08-11-2014 9:09 AM


Re: More Scriptural References
Then you've gathered the intent of the passage. The use of the metaphor of babes and milk does not refer to the relationship to a Father, but instead to the spiritual growth of the church.
What is your point? I quoted those passages to counter Phat's sentiments of having "never heard of God as being similar to a Father in that He expects His people to 'grow up' and not have need of Him, however." (Message 4).
Growth is expected. Spiritually lazy Christians start at John 3:16 and never go anywhere else from there. Their faith is vacuous; they have started at the end and declared themselves well traveled.
Jesus states repeatedly that doing good deeds is the start of salvation:
quote:
Luke 19:8—9 (NRSV):
Zacchaeus stood there and said to the Lord, 'Look, half of my possessions, Lord, I will give to the poor; and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will pay back four times as much.' Then Jesus said to him, 'Today salvation has come to this house, because he too is a son of Abraham.
quote:
Luke 18:18—22 (NRSV):
A certain ruler asked him, 'Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?' Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: "You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honour your father and mother."' He replied, 'I have kept all these since my youth.' When Jesus heard this, he said to him, 'There is still one thing lacking. Sell all that you own and distribute the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.'
On the topic of John 3:16, reading the story of Nicodemus in its entirety, we see the relationship of good deeds to salvation to be as described:
quote:
John 3:16—21 (NRSV):
'For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
'Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgement, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God.'
The folks doing good came to the light and were saved, but they were already doing good works when the light came.
And then there is Matthew 25:31—46, a passage I have often cited; here salvation is given not before the doing of good deeds but after, long after.
Labeling Christians "spiritually lazy" and "helpless" is so close to being derisive and disdainful as to be indistinguishable from them.
I didn't call Christians 'spiritually lazy'; I called some Christians 'spiritually lazy': because they are.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2014 9:09 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 43 (735349)
08-11-2014 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
08-11-2014 3:24 PM


Re: More Scriptural References
Why?
It is an attempt to help them by showing how ridiculous and destructive their belief system is.
It is not the people but the beliefs and ideas that are rightfully ridiculed and mocked.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 08-11-2014 3:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 43 (735359)
08-11-2014 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
08-11-2014 3:10 PM


Re: More Scriptural References
And should they not be treated with derision?
If you are so sure your own beliefs are superior, have at it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-11-2014 3:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 08-11-2014 9:40 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 43 (735362)
08-11-2014 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by NoNukes
08-11-2014 9:17 PM


Re: More Scriptural References
If you are so sure your own beliefs are superior, have at it.
Too funny.
Of course some of my positions (as opposed to beliefs) are superior and I also understand that the beliefs I hold that cannot be supported are equally deserving of derision.
But I cannot even imagine expecting anyone to accept or agree with any of my beliefs.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2014 9:17 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 43 of 43 (735374)
08-12-2014 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
08-11-2014 3:21 PM


Re: Independence or Inter-Dependence?
Phat writes:
For one thing, Jesus advocated it.
Reference, please.
He also advocated helping the poor (and I do have references) but you routinely toss that aside as if it was secondary.
Phat writes:
Within the context of my belief, there is no pretending.
Within the context of The Lord of the Rings there are walking trees. Within that context, we need to pretend that they're real or there's no point in being within that context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-11-2014 3:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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