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Author Topic:   Sky Daddy Cult
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 43 (421933)
09-15-2007 2:20 AM


Let's discuss the view of 'Sky Daddy Theology'. First, what is it? Second, why is it? In other words, what is the Scriptural backing behind Sky Daddy Theology? Third, what negative side effects does Sky Daddy Theology show for people who accept it? In particular, what problems does it present for the world-view of Sky Daddy Theologians, and from a more generalized Christian view, what hindrances does it place on its adherents that might prevent them from obtaining true grace in the eyes of God?
Okay, to start our discussion out, let's define Sky Daddy Theology (let's also abbreviate it SDT). From my perspective, SDT is the belief of some Judeo-Christians that God acts not merely as a Father, who protects and provides for His people, but more specifically as a 'Daddy', who tends to every need of ours and is present to hold our hands through all of life. The main difference I see here with reference to a Father versus a Daddy is that whilst a father may provide the essentials of life; his ultimate goal is to help you to grow and develop into a mature, and responsible adult, capable of making your own decisions, and willing to accept the consequences of your actions with the insight that it is you alone who must mend the problems of your life. Conversely, a daddy is someone who also provides the essentials of life, while at the same time sticking around to tend to your scraped knees himself, instead of teaching you how to do it. Whereas a father would allow you to apply your own bandages, a daddy tends to your scraped knee like it is very special. A daddy feels his child as being too incapable of doing certain things him/herself, and so is willing to do the harder work for the child. A father expects his kids to grow up, but a daddy is willing to accept that they will be forever dependent on his care. Now, to apply this to God: In SDT, God is viewed as the Daddy. He does not merely provide us with the essentials of life, but He is also there to help us and back us out of a corner. If we get in debt up to our eyeballs, we can expect our Sky Daddy to come hurtling buckets of money down to us; because that is His purpose”in our minds”to watch over our every detail, and life the responsibility of life off of us and unto Himself. So much for the definition; it should hopefully be clear, though it can be difficult to explain, yet is rather simple to understand; and distinguish Sky Daddy from the more general idea of God.
As for Scriptural support; it is difficult for me to find. First, I am no adherent to SDT, so I have trouble deciding what an SDT adherent would find as support for their belief. Second, I don't think any parts of the Bible really support SDT, so I'm only trying to assume what might be used as Scriptural support. So, to start it off”I'd be grateful for other Scripture”I'll give some of the basic, and perhaps more obvious ones:
quote:
Matt 6:33 -- But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
.
7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. (8) For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Now, that is just a simple start, from in only one book, but I'm sure there is more Scripture that SDTists believe to support their position. I would like for others to add more Scripture that they think SDTists use, and maybe explain why they think it fits. I know, I didn't explain it, but I am just trying to open it up for discussion.
Now, the third part, and here's the real kicker. Mainly, for non SDT Christians, what do you see as the biggest problems that SDT causes for its adherents that can move them further from God, so to speak? What do you see as the most dangerous aspect of this delusion, not just of its adherents, though, but for the world in general, in which the SDTists exist living life by their delusional theology.
Jon
__________
While I recognize that there may be SDTists from many religions; I feel that SDT as it relates to Judeo-Christianity is probably the more prevalent, and certainly the more relevant form in today's largely Judeo-Christian world. I suppose, though, that any religion could be discussed if we wanted; Islam and such; they are perhaps all relevant.

In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
En el mundo hay multitud de idiomas, y cada uno tiene su propio significado. - I Corintios 14:10
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
A devout people with its back to the wall can be pushed deeper and deeper into hardening religious nativism, in the end even preferring national suicide to religious compromise. - Colin Wells Sailing from Byzantium

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AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 43 (421937)
09-15-2007 2:27 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 43 (421940)
09-15-2007 2:37 AM


Entitlement & SDT
One thing I also want to discuss, is whether the sense of entitlement that some very pious and self-righteous members of Christianity have could be the reason they feel God is looking out for them like an injured child, as though they are special to Him, and them alone.
I've noticed that there are many SDTists who think rather highly of themselves.
Jon

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 43 (422049)
09-15-2007 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
09-15-2007 2:20 AM


Daddy, can I have a Cadillac?
This Link may show a bit of the Sky Daddy favoritism that you suggest. I have never heard of God as being similar to a Father in that He expects His people to "grow up" and not have need of Him, however.
On the one hand, Prosperity Theology could be said to be a gross misrepresentation of Gods unmerited favor upon believers. There are some aberrant teachings out there concerning Gods purpose as some sort of magical genie that showers only believers with abundance...usually in the form of materialistic blessing.
On the other hand, I don't see God as some stern Father that boots us out of the nest and expects us to become independent of Him, either. God desires a daily communion and personal relationship with Him.
Thats what I was always taught, at any rate.

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 5 of 43 (422066)
09-15-2007 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
09-15-2007 4:56 PM


Phat writes:
I have never heard of God as being similar to a Father in that He expects His people to "grow up" and not have need of Him, however.
You need to get up to speed. That very point has been discussed many times right here at EvC.
On the other hand, I don't see God as some stern Father that boots us out of the nest and expects us to become independent of Him, either.
What a bizarre analogy. What would you think of a bird-father who didn't teach his children to be independent, who left them unable to fly south?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 6 of 43 (422067)
09-15-2007 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
09-15-2007 2:20 AM


it depends on the theologian.
given a quick read of the OP, i unfortunately think i must fall into your SDT group. (i just got used to this meaning "save the date". jesus, people.)
however, i think this doesn't really give a real understanding of what real life daddies do and the analogies given which this understanding is based on both in the old and new testament.
the first verse is in the psalms somewhere where it also discusses god as "mommy". the verses describe the writer's relationship with his god as a weaned child on his mother's lap. in the new testament, this is referenced as those who desire meat and no longer require milk. a mature believer no longer relies completely on god for all sustenance. the weaned child is still very close to his mother and very intimate, but he is free and able and meant to glean his nourishment from elsewhere.
the second place this is really described is in the tale of the prodigal son. now, usually this story is referenced in the idea of rebellion and forgiveness, and this is part of it, but it's more than that, too. the son is given his chance to explore the world on his own. the particular path he chose was the wrong one. but regardless of what happened and what he did, he was welcomed back because he was family. god always loves his children. it's not like the father maligned his son while he was away and changed his mind when he came home, he loved him the whole time. like a father, the love of god does not change the way our fickle paths do.
but, as i said above, the mature believer moves away from the milk of the gospel and into deep theological meat. he doesn't need god to hold his hand, but instead become a new creature desiring right and capable of doing as god desires. what that is, is of course up for debate and not on-topic, as far as i'm concerned.

i'm not going to capitalize my posts, get better eyes.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 43 (422453)
09-17-2007 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
09-15-2007 2:20 AM


The Lord Is My Shepherd
Jon writes:
Whereas a father would allow you to apply your own bandages, a daddy tends to your scraped knee like it is very special. A daddy feels his child as being too incapable of doing certain things him/herself, and so is willing to do the harder work for the child.
A father expects his kids to grow up, but a daddy is willing to accept that they will be forever dependent on his care.
I don't expect God to fix all of my problems, but I also don't expect to be pushed out from under His covering, either. One of the most apt metaphors that defends my view of god is the The 23rd Psalm. Note how it says that I shall Dwell In The House Of The Lord Forever. It appears that we never need leave the nest!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 43 (422454)
09-17-2007 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ringo
09-15-2007 5:58 PM


Independence or Inter-Dependence?
Ringo writes:
What a bizarre analogy. What would you think of a bird-father who didn't teach his children to be independent, who left them unable to fly south?
Flying South is an instinct...a built-in feature for birds. If you look at scriptural references to Jesus as our Shepherd, nowhere does it imply that sheep reach a certain age where they no longer need a shepherd.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 9 of 43 (422462)
09-17-2007 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
09-17-2007 7:46 AM


Re: Independence or Inter-Dependence?
quote:
If you look at scriptural references to Jesus as our Shepherd, nowhere does it imply that sheep reach a certain age where they no longer need a shepherd.
Sheep are also as dumb as a box of rocks.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 10 of 43 (422478)
09-17-2007 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
09-17-2007 7:46 AM


Re: Independence or Inter-Dependence?
Phat writes:
If you look at scriptural references to Jesus as our Shepherd, nowhere does it imply that sheep reach a certain age where they no longer need a shepherd.
That's the danger of gluing yourself to one scriptural image and ignoring all the rest.
It's the Father-child relationship that we were discussing. It certainly is implied that children reach a certain age where they no longer need their parents. Parents usually die before their children, making it necessary for children to become independent.
Flying South is an instinct...a built-in feature for birds.
Irrelevant. We're talking about the kicking-them-out-of-the-nest stage, not the direction they fly outside the nest.
A bird-father who kept his birdlings in the nest where they never learned to fly would be inconceivably irresponsible. He would be ultimately condemning his children to suffering and death.
Why would God be so irresponsible?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 43 (422746)
09-18-2007 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
09-17-2007 10:46 AM


Re: Independence or Inter-Dependence?
Ringo writes:
It's the Father-child relationship that we were discussing. It certainly is implied that children reach a certain age where they no longer need their parents. Parents usually die before their children, making it necessary for children to become independent.
Yes but unlike a natural Father, God never dies nor do humans ever outgrow there need for Him.
Ringo writes:
We're talking about the kicking-them-out-of-the-nest stage, not the direction they fly outside the nest.
A bird-father who kept his birdlings in the nest where they never learned to fly would be inconceivably irresponsible. He would be ultimately condemning his children to suffering and death.
Why would God be so irresponsible?
I believe that God expects us to become mature in our Faith and to use the reasoning that He gave us. I don't believe that He ever expects us to leave His nest, however. This nest is quite large!
Moreover, I don't like the "nest" analogy....how about mansion?
NIV writes:
John 14:1-4--"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 12 of 43 (422796)
09-18-2007 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
09-18-2007 6:18 AM


Re: Independence or Inter-Dependence?
Phat writes:
Yes but unlike a natural Father, God never dies nor do humans ever outgrow there need for Him.
You're assuming the conclusion. The question is, Do we ever outgrow the "need" for God?
I don't like the "nest" analogy...
Well, you're the one who brought it up. It isn't my fault if your own analysis of your own analogy doesn't fit the point you're trying to make.
I think the Sky Daddy topic is tailor-made for discussion of closer-to-earth sky-daddies.
...how about mansion?
Notice your own reference:
quote:
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions....
He wasn't talking about keeping us in His mansion. He was talking about our own mansions. That's a picture of an independent adult child, isn't it?
And why is He preparing a place for us?
quote:
... that where I am, there ye may be also.
So we can be with Him, not so He can wipe our noses and screen our boyfriends.
I believe that God expects us to become mature in our Faith and to use the reasoning that He gave us.
Becoming mature in our faith means understanding that faith is not a substitute for reason. Nor should it be an excuse to dangle on the apron strings.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 13 of 43 (422801)
09-18-2007 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
09-18-2007 11:41 AM


The Sublime, the Knowable, and the Intimate
Ringo: I think the Sky Daddy topic is tailor-made for discussion of closer-to-earth sky-daddies.
A fascinating realm to explore.
It looks to me as if all the major world religions have developed ways to accommodate the tension between the sublimity and intimacy of the divine. We are asked to feel both a sense of awe and a sense of personal contact. A view that emphasizes the first exclusively leads people to believe the divine is always far away and that no one cares. A view that emphasizes the latter exclusively leads people to feel the divine is knowable--even ordinary--and that no place exists for reverence or mystery.
The healthiest religions seem to balance the idea that the holy is beyond you and over all, that the holy is alongside you--as real as your neighbour--and that the holy is close to you, even inside you. The Trinity image in traditional Christianity, for example, gives a place to each idea.
____

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 43 (425608)
10-03-2007 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
09-18-2007 6:18 AM


More Scriptural References
Some [highlighted] quotes from the Good Book:
quote:
Ephesians 4:13-16 -- until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (14) As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; (15) but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, (16) from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. New American Standard Bible
quote:
1 Corinthians 13:11 -- When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
...
14:20 -- Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.
quote:
Hebrews 5:13-14 -- For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. (14) But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
quote:
1 Peter 2:2 -- like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
Also, pointing out some things in your passages, primarily, the use of 'child' as a simile instead of a metaphor:
quote:
[C]ritics ranging from Aristotle to I. A. Richards have argued that metaphors equate the vehicle with the tenor instead of simply comparing the two.
quote:
Mark 10:15 -- "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
quote:
Matthew 18:3-4 -- and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. (4) "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
To 'receive...like a child' is not to 'be a child'; it is to have receiving which resembles the receiving that a child has. Children also drool and speak in nonsense syllables; surely Christ was not telling people to be that way, was He?
To 'humble [one's self] as [a] child' is not to 'be a child'; it is to have humbleness which resembles the humbleness that a child has. Children also drool and speak in nonsense syllables; surely Christ was not telling people to be that way, was He?
I should point out that in those situations 'child' is essentially a modifier referring to the 'reception' or 'humbleness' and is supposed to specify what model of 'reception' or 'humbleness' to take into your own life. It is not a modifier referring to the person; it does not tell you how to be, but rather how to 'humble', rather how to 'receive'.
Jon
__________
Ross Murfin and Supryia M. Ray; The Bedford Glossary of Critical and Literary Terms 2d ed.
Edited by Jon, : Modified colours.
Edited by Jon, : Participl-ing

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 43 (435493)
11-21-2007 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
09-15-2007 2:20 AM


Who is in charge of our conscience?
Jonnachi of Alexandria writes:
I should point out that in those situations 'child' is essentially a modifier referring to the 'reception' or 'humbleness' and is supposed to specify what model of 'reception' or 'humbleness' to take into your own life. It is not a modifier referring to the person; it does not tell you how to be, but rather how to 'humble', rather how to 'receive'.
OK...good work. You clarified the meaning of child in Biblical context.
Lets re-examine this topic, however.
Jonnachi writes:
From my perspective, SDT is the belief of some Judeo-Christians that God acts not merely as a Father, who protects and provides for His people, but more specifically as a 'Daddy', who tends to every need of ours and is present to hold our hands through all of life.
I agree with you that we are not helpless children in the sense that God is our everyday rescuer.
What do you interpret this scripture to mean, however?
NIV writes:
Prov 3:5-7
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;(...)
Jon writes:
his ultimate goal is to help you to grow and develop into a mature, and responsible adult, capable of making your own decisions, and willing to accept the consequences of your actions with the insight that it is you alone who must mend the problems of your life.
NIV writes:
Ps 118:8
8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to trust in man.
and while I'm tinkering around in the quote mine, can we shed some light on what Jesus meant (or how the author of John interpreted His meaning)
NIV writes:
John 14:1-2
14:1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
and...John 14:6-7
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
Some folks say that GOD is unknowable. I agree inasmuch as GOD the territory is so vast and awe-encompassing that it would be impossible for a mere worm-like human to even begin to fathom the depths of His intelligence.
What did Jesus mean, though..when He said:
NIV writes:
John 14:10-11
The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Does this suggest that Jesus was just some human guy who did what was right in his own eyes?

Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Homer Simpson: Sometimes, Marge, you just have to go with your gut!
Marge: You *always* go with your gut! How about for once you listen to your brain?

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