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Author Topic:   How do we know God is "Good"?
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 256 of 305 (160766)
11-17-2004 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 9:14 PM


drowned infants
Do you know that these "terrible God" stance you take, is infact - to be blamed on sin? HUMAN'S made the flood happen. They were not forced to be wicked - "every thought of their heart continually".
Mike, I'll have to disagree with you here. Hum ans did not make the flood happen - God made the flood happen in response to human sin. I think that many have trouble reconciling a God as "good" when He would commit global genocide as a response to anything.
I think God Himself sees that His judgement was "bad" regarding the flood, since He vows to never do it again:
Gen 8:21 - And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth ; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
I read this as God creating mankind as evil, then punishing mankind for that evil - more out of personal regret than punishment (from my reading of Gen 6 also).
Whenever God destroys the world, a nation, or a town for being entirely sinful, I find it impossible to believe - what about the infants? is often my first thought.
For all of the good in the Bible, God also commits many acts and proscribes many law s that can only be described as evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 9:14 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 9:33 PM pink sasquatch has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 257 of 305 (160767)
11-17-2004 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 9:19 PM


What is the difference in meaning between the following phrases?:
men and beast
man and beast

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 9:19 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 9:40 PM nator has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 258 of 305 (160768)
11-17-2004 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by pink sasquatch
11-17-2004 9:27 PM


Re: drowned infants
So what is your plan of action? Does your disagreement mean God doesn't exist? Sorry - But this won't mean he doesn't exist.
We have a choice to sin - or not.
When we sin - we give our dominion to satan. Satan tempted Christ with Kingdoms of this world, Christ didn't make the mistake of handing his domion over - for he knew all things.
The bible itself says that God will punish us according to the fruit or the "evil" of our doings. THIS is biblical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-17-2004 9:27 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-17-2004 9:59 PM mike the wiz has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 259 of 305 (160769)
11-17-2004 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by nator
11-17-2004 9:31 PM


Did Christ heal according to the bible? Did Christ die for us according to the bible? Did Christ feed the hungry according to the bible? Did Christ come as a humble person according to the bible? Was Christ the person of God according to the bible? Is man sinful according to the bible? Did Christ wash our sins away according to the bible? Did Christ suffer according to the bible? Did Christ sin according to the bible? Was Christ the person by whom we look to when looking at God's person - according to the bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by nator, posted 11-17-2004 9:31 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by nator, posted 11-17-2004 9:54 PM mike the wiz has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 260 of 305 (160770)
11-17-2004 9:43 PM


"How do we know God is good?"
Well, the best way is to look at his person. Since you say God makes mistakes like a person - and you all want to judge God, like he is a person, shall we look at his person?

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 261 of 305 (160771)
11-17-2004 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 9:14 PM


Re: Babies in Sodom
quote:
HUMAN'S made the flood happen. They were not forced to be wicked -
No, God chose a flood, which he knew would cause great suffering and fear.
He could have just ended all life with a thought, but instead made people and innocent animals suffer.
quote:
You don't want to believe in God of the bible,
Oh? It's a simple matter of preferance for me? Well, thanks for clearing up that little confusion of my psyche for me, mike.
Tell me, do you not "want" to believe the Gods of the Gita?
quote:
you'll make him look bad by mentioning how humans came to an end BECAUSE of theor own sin.
Can you please quote the verse in the Bible in which God tells everyone in the world that he was going to drown them unless they repented?
quote:
If I'm wrong biblically, why does the bible say "the fruit of YOUR doings"?
Gee, it sure looks like I'm the one telling the truth bout the Bible and you are the one tying yourself in knots.
quote:
I'm not twisting the bible - I'm doing what I must against the crowd.
Sometimes the crowd is right, mike.
In this case, let's not forget that you are claiming that there were no children anywhere in the world before the flood.
That is stupid.
God wants you to be stupid?
Thank goodness I'm not a Christian. I don't want to be stupid.
quote:
I know your intentions.
And just what are those?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 9:14 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 10:02 PM nator has replied
 Message 270 by dpardo, posted 11-17-2004 10:30 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 262 of 305 (160772)
11-17-2004 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 9:40 PM


Look, don't get upset at me.
I didn't try to use that silly semantic game, you did.
What is the difference in meaning of the following two phrases?;
men and beast
man and beast.
Obviously, the meaning you want is for "man" to mean adult male, but then the word used would be "men" and beast.
But, of course, "man and beast" means "mankind", not adult male, making it rather clear that children would have been among the ones struck down by the angel of death, by God's order.
I was just pointing out that this is a semantic game that you are too smart to use.
Here's a hint, mike:
If your theology makes you use dumb arguments and silly illogic to maintain it, maybe your theology is what is lacking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 9:40 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 10:10 PM nator has not replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 263 of 305 (160773)
11-17-2004 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 9:33 PM


dismemberment
Does your disagreement mean God doesn't exist? Sorry - But this won't mean he doesn't exist.
I wasn't arguing that He doesn't exist, so this reply is illogical.
We have a choice to sin - or not.
Depends on your interpretation of the Bible. When God states that "man is evil from his youth", my interpretation is that He created us as evil.
Otherwise, how could God justify killing all of the human infants on Earth? They were evil from their youth. But what choice to sin had those week-old infants made?
The bible itself says that God will punish us according to the fruit or the "evil" of our doings. THIS is biblical.
Right, a "good" boss will give you a talking-to if you are always ten minutes late for work. A "bad" boss will blow your head off with a shotgun for the same tardiness.
Often God's punishments are much harsher than the "evil of our doings."
Like in Ezekiel 23, where the Lord has a woman's nose and ears cut off with a sword, and she is then forced to cut off her own breasts - for the crime of being lewd.
That's an evil act.
Can you honestly defend it as otherwise? Would you this a "good" act by any mortal, under any conceivable situation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 9:33 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by dpardo, posted 11-17-2004 10:18 PM pink sasquatch has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 264 of 305 (160774)
11-17-2004 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by nator
11-17-2004 9:45 PM


Re: Babies in Sodom
You said thank goodness you're not a CHRISTian. Christians believe Christ is the person of God.
I prefer the cross to the crowd.
Gee, it sure looks like I'm the one telling the truth bout the Bible and you are the one tying yourself in knots.
What? By telling what the bible says about sin? That we shall be punished according to our doings? In evry event mentioned - God said he spared the righteouss. Why should I believe you and not the bible?
Pink atheist said the first thing he thought is "what about the babies". This is an example, that you first try and blame God - and think of possible ways to make man's sin God's instead. Yet in every event mentioned, it was shown in the bible that man sinned. So I think the bible agrees with me somehow Shraff - that the wicked were punished and the righteous were not. "There is no peace sayeth the Lord, for the wicked". "Oh if thou hadst hearkened unto my commandments - then thy peace would have been as a river" - again, all biblical - and I agree with it. What am I twisting? AM I not agreeing? What truth do I deny? Simply show me the verse about babies With the bible. I have shown you everything I said with the bible. And you say I twist it, when I quote it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by nator, posted 11-17-2004 9:45 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-17-2004 10:13 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 284 by nator, posted 11-18-2004 9:23 AM mike the wiz has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 265 of 305 (160776)
11-17-2004 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by nator
11-17-2004 9:54 PM


So you think a man is a baby?
Obviously, the meaning you want is for "man" to mean adult male
Did you just say that?
Obviously, the meaning you want is for "man" to mean adult male, but then the word used would be "men" and beast.
No Shraff - I'm most pleased it said "both man and beast" - it wouldn't say both "men" and beast, as that would have sounded odd. God said "both man and beast" - I have no reason to think that a man is a baby, or to twist or obfuscate. It's as clear as a bell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by nator, posted 11-17-2004 9:54 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-17-2004 10:27 PM mike the wiz has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 266 of 305 (160779)
11-17-2004 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 10:02 PM


Re: Babies in Sodom
Pink atheist said the first thing he thought is "what about the babies". This is an example, that you first try and blame God -
First of all, why the hell are you calling me an atheist? You're above name-calling, Mike.
I don't think I am guilty of "first trying to blame God" - I am guilty of compassion for human infants. If you don't think the same thing, then maybe I should call you "Mike the Neonate Hater". But that doesn't really further our discussion...
I think Gen 6-8 show God as a distraught Father that doesn't know how to deal with His children. First He says He regrets making the mistake of creating man; then He vows to destroy them through horrible means; He isn't able to completely destroy His creation, so He spares one family. After it is all over He regrets what He did, and vows to never do it again.
If anything this is the OT God at His most openly falliable - and thus He is also particularly relatable at the Flood. However, this doesn't make the act of drowning all life on the planet a "good" thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 10:02 PM mike the wiz has not replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 267 of 305 (160780)
11-17-2004 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 1:26 PM


no babies?
Sorry Mike,
I'm just catching up to your apparent assertion that there weren't any babies killed during Flood - but I must say that seems a stretch.
Can you clarify your thoughts on this point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 1:26 PM mike the wiz has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 305 (160781)
11-17-2004 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by pink sasquatch
11-17-2004 9:59 PM


Re: dismemberment
Pink Sasquatch writes:
Like in Ezekiel 23, where the Lord has a woman's nose and ears cut off with a sword, and she is then forced to cut off her own breasts - for the crime of being lewd.
That's an evil act.
Pink Sasquatch,
Ezekiel 23 is a metaphorical description of the sin (and punishment) of Jerusalem and Samaria. Verse 4 says:
4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.
Emphasis mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-17-2004 9:59 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-17-2004 11:33 PM dpardo has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 269 of 305 (160784)
11-17-2004 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 10:10 PM


I have no reason to think that a man is a baby, or to twist or obfuscate. It's as clear as a bell.
Okay - so somehow babies were spared during the Flood. What about the killing of every first-born in Egypt in Exodus? Or in Numbers, when God commands Moses' army to kill all of the male children of the defeated Midianites?
Are you actually arguing that God never killed a naive child?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 10:10 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by mike the wiz, posted 11-18-2004 9:06 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 270 of 305 (160785)
11-17-2004 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by nator
11-17-2004 9:45 PM


Re: Babies in Sodom
Schrafinator writes:
No, God chose a flood, which he knew would cause great suffering and fear.
He could have just ended all life with a thought, but instead made people and innocent animals suffer.
Schrafinator,
The truth is we don't know exactly how much suffering and fear occurred. We can only speculate.
IMO, God could just as easily (and most likely did) have miracled a quick and painless death for all of the innocent babies that you are so concerned about.
The bible describes the condition of mankind (with the exception of Noah and his family) to be one in which their thoughts were continually evil. I think if he spared the innocent babies from this it was a good act.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by nator, posted 11-17-2004 9:45 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by lfen, posted 11-18-2004 12:22 AM dpardo has replied

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