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Author Topic:   Choosing to believe
jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 9 of 90 (393155)
04-03-2007 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Woodsy
03-30-2007 1:57 PM


Of course you can choose to believe.
Can one choose to believe something one knows is false?
Of course. It is really easy. The key point is your use of the phrase "knows is false". That in and of itself is an opening.
The question is, if someone simply refuses to accept any of the evidence against some issue, do they know that it is false?
We see this all the time with Young Earth Creationists and Biblical Literalists. They simply refuse to acknowledge reality of either the world they live in or the book they claim to follow.
They choose to believe that they are right even though all of the evidence shows that they are wrong scientifically and theologically.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Woodsy, posted 03-30-2007 1:57 PM Woodsy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Woodsy, posted 04-04-2007 8:16 AM jar has replied
 Message 24 by rstrats, posted 04-25-2007 3:06 PM jar has replied
 Message 32 by truthlover, posted 04-25-2007 11:36 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 15 of 90 (393320)
04-04-2007 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Woodsy
04-04-2007 8:16 AM


Too general
I guess this makes things symmetrical. Theists find it hard to believe that athiests really do not believe in gods, and athiests suspect that theists do not really believe in them.
As a Christian Theist I personally have no problem either believing that Atheists really do not believe in Gods or even in understanding why that point of view would be rational.
When we talk about things we know, we are looking at a broad spectrum. There are things we can know with surety, those things which are proven such as found in mathematics. At the other end of the spectrum are those things we can not know, is there life after death, is there a GOD or Gods. At that end we may well believe based on personal experience and what we consider sufficient evidence, but honestly, we must also admit that we could well be wrong.
In between those two extremes we find the vast body of knowledge where we can actually assign some level of confidence. I feel comfortable saying that if I drop and object it will fall. In fact, on that item I would say that I KNOW that if I drop an object it will fall.
But all of that is a reflection of the world of logic and science. There is yet another world though, one driven by emotion, and there rationality often plays a small part.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 23 of 90 (393469)
04-05-2007 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
04-05-2007 9:59 AM


Re: Too general
I suppose that technically I could be wrong, but I look at it much the same as I look at my belief in you. I don't know for a fact that you are who you say you are.
Even if we met in person you could not know for a fact that I am who I say I am.
Although I have talked to you and received answers, there is a small possibility that you never existed and that either an impostor or a sophisticated computer program really provided me with a dialogue. The chance is so small, however, that I don't consider it. Its the same way with God.
Actually, no it isn't the same way with God, it is not even close.
Honestly compare the two scenarios.
While simply meeting me does not tell you for sure who I am, it is a good evidence that something exists. You can have other folk come to meet me and if they too experience the entity "me" it adds additional weight. You can take photos of "me" and videos, and record my voice, and weigh me and touch me.
Each of those adds weight to the question "is he real" but add little evidence related to the question "Is he who he says he is?"
Fortunately we have other tests that can be applied. Over our lives we constantly have contact with other people and so leave a history. In addition there are things like finger prints, DNA and legal documents and identifiers.
None of those tests apply to God. We can test both the fact of an existence called jar, and the fact that that existence called jar really is the entity jar.
That is not true for GOD.
How can I have a personal relationship with someone that I am unsure exists?
By continuing just as we do at EvC. You operate from a position of trust until you receive evidence that the entity you are dealing with is NOT who you think it is.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 25 of 90 (397361)
04-25-2007 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by rstrats
04-25-2007 3:06 PM


It is really very simple.
Did you read all of Message 9?
It doesn't appear so.
All that is necessary is to shut your eyes real tight and say, "I do believe.", "I do believe!", I do believe in Fairies!", "I really do believe in Fairies!" and if you really, really do believe in Fairies, Tinker will start to glow green and brite again.
Or, you can kill Tink.
It is up to you whether Tinker Belle lives or dies..

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by rstrats, posted 04-25-2007 3:06 PM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by rstrats, posted 04-25-2007 5:08 PM jar has replied
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 04-25-2007 6:47 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 27 of 90 (397373)
04-25-2007 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by rstrats
04-25-2007 5:08 PM


Re: It is really very simple.
Of course I was able to do that and I even explained exactly how. I closed my eyes real tight and repeated "I do believe in Fairies!"
It really is that simple.
Are you saying that you are belief challenged? How sad. May I recommend a strong dose of Alice?
“There is no use trying", said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things."
"I dare say you haven't had much practice", said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
AbE:
There are other such examples seen here at EvC regularly. We see people who will actually tell you they know they are saved, that they know God, that they believe there is no conflicts or contradictions in the Bible, that there is only one Creation story in the Bible and that it is factual, that there was a Flood or that there was an Exodus as described in the Bible or that the conquest of Canaan happened as described in Joshuah or that the Earth is Young.
These people have no problem simply choosing to believe things that are patently false and in many cases mutually exclusive. They even go so far as to call themselves Biblical Literalists even though if they were really literalists, they would have to admit that the Bible proves itself false in the first two chapters.
No, it appears that it is very easy and very common for folk to choose to believe.
Edited by jar, : add stuff

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 30 of 90 (397387)
04-25-2007 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
04-25-2007 6:47 PM


Re: It is really very simple.
Is it also up to me whether God lives or dies?
Certainly as much as with Tinker Belle.
If I threw Him away, would I cease to exist?
No.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 04-25-2007 6:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 31 of 90 (397389)
04-25-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Quetzal
04-25-2007 7:04 PM


Re: Too general
And I can see nothing to fault in your observation or reasoning.
The fact that unambiguous evidence hasn't materialized in all that time, with literally billions of humans assiduously seeking it, indicates to me that functionally it doesn't exist.
Not only that, but when it comes to the supernatural, evidence, even unambiguous evidence may well be worthless.
It is, as I pointed out above, much like reading Louis Carroll, a search for the logic in an illogical world. The important thing to note though is that often the logic really is there, or perhaps not.
Alice: Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?
The Cat: That depends a good deal on where you want to get to.
Alice: I don't much care where...
The Cat: Then it doesn't much matter which way you go.
Alice: ...so long as I get somewhere.
The Cat: Oh, you're sure to do that, if only you walk long enough.
ps: you get my email?
pps: see Message 15.
Edited by jar, : add pps:

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Quetzal, posted 04-25-2007 7:04 PM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Quetzal, posted 04-27-2007 6:28 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 34 of 90 (397448)
04-25-2007 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by truthlover
04-25-2007 11:36 PM


choosing to believe falsehoods.
As I said, I find lots of problems with that reasoning. However, I don't believe it's in any way true that Ken Ham and those with him are simply choosing to believe falsehood.
I do not believe it is simply choosing falsehoods, I fully believe (that word again) that they believe that what they believe is not false.
If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 35 of 90 (397450)
04-25-2007 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by truthlover
04-25-2007 11:44 PM


Amen Brother
I think many Christians don't really believe. They hope. And they fight for their hope that their faith is true much more strongly than if they really believed, because really believing would give them a confidence that would make much of their battling for their faith unnecessary.
Thank you. That is wonderfully said.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 52 of 90 (397798)
04-27-2007 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Quetzal
04-27-2007 6:28 PM


Re: Too general
resent:
And I could not agree with you more.
Personally, as a Creationist, I do believe that GOD created all that is seen, and unseen. All Science is doing is trying to determine HOW that was done.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Quetzal, posted 04-27-2007 6:28 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 69 of 90 (716881)
01-22-2014 9:10 AM


Choosing to believe
There are Dallas Cowboy and Houston Astro and Cub fans.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
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