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Author Topic:   Choosing to believe
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 22 of 90 (393458)
04-05-2007 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
04-04-2007 12:19 PM


Re: Too general
Jar writes:
At the other end of the spectrum are those things we can not know, is there life after death, is there a GOD or Gods. At that end we may well believe based on personal experience and what we consider sufficient evidence, but honestly, we must also admit that we could well be wrong.
I suppose that technically I could be wrong, but I look at it much the same as I look at my belief in you. I don't know for a fact that you are who you say you are.
Although I have talked to you and received answers, there is a small possibility that you never existed and that either an impostor or a sophisticated computer program really provided me with a dialogue. The chance is so small, however, that I don't consider it. Its the same way with God. How can I have a personal relationship with someone that I am unsure exists?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 28 of 90 (397382)
04-25-2007 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
04-25-2007 4:16 PM


Re: It is really very simple.
Jar writes:
It is up to you whether Tinker Belle lives or dies..
Is it also up to me whether God lives or dies? If I threw Him away, would I cease to exist?

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 Message 25 by jar, posted 04-25-2007 4:16 PM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 41 of 90 (397501)
04-26-2007 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by nator
04-26-2007 8:33 AM


Re: Too general
Nator, I would like to start a Faith/Belief based topic on some sort of discussion concerning these relational issues...be they real or imagined.
I am leaning towards starting a new topic on addictions. My Christian counselor and I agree that addictions cannot be dealt with on the classic disease model alone. What do you think? Should I start a topic on them?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 53 of 90 (716308)
01-14-2014 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
04-04-2007 12:19 PM


Belief Based On Emotion
jar writes:
When we talk about things we know, we are looking at a broad spectrum. There are things we can know with surety, those things which are proven such as found in mathematics. At the other end of the spectrum are those things we can not know, is there life after death, is there a GOD or Gods. At that end we may well believe based on personal experience and what we consider sufficient evidence, but honestly, we must also admit that we could well be wrong.
In between those two extremes we find the vast body of knowledge where we can actually assign some level of confidence. I feel comfortable saying that if I drop and object it will fall. In fact, on that item I would say that I KNOW that if I drop an object it will fall.
But all of that is a reflection of the world of logic and science. There is yet another world though, one driven by emotion, and there rationality often plays a small part.
You often say that many "Biblical" Christians are dishonest. For example, lets look at this guy, a biblical christian whom I just now found on the internet--Bishop Jim Lowe
He fervently teaches that the "Word" will not return to us void---if honestly pursued and applied. This is, as you say, a world of teaching based strongly on emotion and experience. There is little logic.
quote:
KEYS TO THE HUNDREDFOLD RETURN
1. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
a. Here it says God’s word is alive and active
b. A thing that is alive can reproduce itself. The word of God is alive and will reproduce in the life of a believer everything God has purposed for it to do
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
c. The word is so powerful Jesus had this to say regarding it
Mark 4:23-25 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear. Consider carefully what you hear, he continued. With the measure you use, it will be measured to youand even more. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
This parable is repeated in three gospels and by meaning in John 15
Mark 4:1-8 Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times.
Mark 4:13-20 Then Jesus said to them, Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? The farmer sows the word. Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a cropthirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown.
I am at a point where I question whether the Bible is inerrant. Thus I am not being dishonest if I use a scripture to make a point. I don't simply believe that redactors changed the Bible to fit their own biases and stuff like that. There is no conclusive evidence either way. What I will honestly admit is that I myself have my own personal bias. I want GOD to love me enough that He favors me. I believe that Jesus death,burial and resurrection are very important for the state of humanity today. I am confused about the doctrine of Original Sin. I am beginning to question that premise. Question--if we take original sin out of the equation, does that alone change the importance of the death, burial and resurrection theology of much of the church today?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 56 of 90 (716539)
01-18-2014 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Diomedes
01-15-2014 2:58 PM


Re: Belief Based On Emotion
So are you claiming that God didn't raise him from the dead?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 60 of 90 (716707)
01-20-2014 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Modulous
01-20-2014 1:28 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
perhaps i felt heat from it, though i never actually touched it. so...yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Modulous, posted 01-20-2014 1:28 PM Modulous has replied

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 Message 61 by Modulous, posted 01-20-2014 3:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 62 of 90 (716716)
01-20-2014 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Modulous
01-20-2014 3:08 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
what if I had never actually felt heat from the fire but had seen pictures of fire and heard stories that it was hot?

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 Message 61 by Modulous, posted 01-20-2014 3:08 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Modulous, posted 01-20-2014 3:40 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 64 of 90 (716724)
01-20-2014 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Modulous
01-20-2014 3:40 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
It depends on who is telling me the stories. I tend to trust stories from people whom I trust.

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 Message 63 by Modulous, posted 01-20-2014 3:40 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Modulous, posted 01-20-2014 5:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 66 of 90 (716757)
01-21-2014 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Modulous
01-20-2014 5:32 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
nope. I would need evidence. Everyone knows that fire is supposed to be hot.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 72 of 90 (908340)
03-11-2023 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by rstrats
03-10-2023 9:07 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
I suppose when I threw something in the fire and it burned up. I chose to believe initially because the fire consumed me. Not propaganda, though Tangle will argue I NEVER would have become a Christian in another culture, though many of those Catholics never got the fire to begin with. They went through the rituals, bells, smells, kneeling, etc. They may have had good Priests with the fire, though in the Catholic tradition being "on fire" is rare.
If they caught it (The Spirit/Fire) at all, it would have come from either another Catholic with the Spirit or a Protestant friend. Rarer still, God Himself could have chosen them God does NOT personally intervene with every human on the planet. He prefers that we help spread the fire in our own unique ways. Having said that, I believe that God chooses everyone yet we have to choose Him back. The whole planet is not simply automatically saved. (Though perhaps some day He could step in and do that too!)
I have found that people who are lukewarm either eventually warm up to God(Jesus) or they get colder and become antitheists. Which of course is a form of the antichrist spirit. Just sayin....

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 73 of 90 (908341)
03-11-2023 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
01-22-2014 9:10 AM


Re: Choosing to believe
jar writes:
There are Dallas Cowboy and Houston Astro and Cub fans.
True.
There are also many paths up the mountain but there is One top. Not many.
Imagine a Guru living in a hut at the top. When He looks down the mountain He sees many many paths up to the top. Meeting Him is the goal of climbing the mountain by whatever path you have.
Surely you wont argue that there are three or more Gurus at the top wearing their teams colors!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 76 of 90 (908359)
03-12-2023 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by rstrats
03-12-2023 2:52 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
I didn't follow that train of thought did. I? My new answer is if the room gets cold then the fire is cold. This is self evident

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by rstrats, posted 03-12-2023 2:52 PM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by rstrats, posted 03-13-2023 7:30 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 78 of 90 (908364)
03-13-2023 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by rstrats
03-13-2023 7:30 AM


Re: Choosing To Believe
In my opinion, belief (mine at least) is not simply yin and yang. Hot and Cold. Good and Evil. Though it is evident that our world has both elements, (Dualism) I do not see polar opposites of equal power or persuasion. Ellis Potter explains it here in a topic I wrote a few years ago. 3 Theories Of Everything by Ellis Potter

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
God alone is God
but
God is not alone
~Ellis Potter
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 81 of 90 (908405)
03-14-2023 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Theodoric
03-13-2023 10:40 AM


Re: Choosing To Believe
Take this argument to Message 16 and we can discuss it there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Theodoric, posted 03-13-2023 10:40 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Theodoric, posted 03-14-2023 9:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 83 of 90 (908411)
03-14-2023 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Theodoric
03-14-2023 9:44 AM


Re: Choosing To Believe
All Im arguing is that Ellis Potters argument is most certainly Christian, rational, and philosophically sound.

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