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Author Topic:   Take the Atheist Challenge!!!
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 241 of 321 (108094)
05-14-2004 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by riVeRraT
05-14-2004 1:24 AM


riverrat writes:
When TOE tries to explain this, and TOE cannot be proven, then TOE cannot be a fact. Facts are actual things.
As someone else pointed out earlier, probably Sylas, fact does not mean absolute certainty.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:24 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:39 AM coffee_addict has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 242 of 321 (108095)
05-14-2004 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by coffee_addict
05-14-2004 1:24 AM


When and if you find God, you will then become aware of the devil, and demons.
Suggested reading Ephesians 6:10 -20
Now when I feel attacked by the devil, I try to immediatly reconize it and pray for protection. I can't tell how much this has worked for me.
I mean so much so and so instantainious, that my would be enemies show up out(or call out) of nowhere, 15 minutes after praying to apologize to me.
Have fun with that one guys, I know you will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by coffee_addict, posted 05-14-2004 1:24 AM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by MonkeyBoy, posted 05-15-2004 8:06 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 243 of 321 (108096)
05-14-2004 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by riVeRraT
05-14-2004 1:26 AM


I don't understand what you mean by "evolving in groups".
Bacterial evolution happens the same as in any other population, just at a much faster rate than the slower reproducing human population.
Bacteria reproduce by mitosis and as such are essentially clones of the prior generation....other than mutations and such that happen during the division. If a second generation bacteria has a change from a mutation that lets it survive and divide better than one without that change then the next generation will have that change also.
If something is killing off the bacteria without the change, guess what? The following generations will, by necessity have this change.
This is evolution, the fact.
You are still getting hung up on the difference between evolution the observable fact...and the Theory of Evolution, the..er...theory. The proposed explanations that fit all the facts.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:26 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:43 AM Asgara has replied

Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 321 (108097)
05-14-2004 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by riVeRraT
05-14-2004 1:24 AM


Facts are actual things.
Neither the existence of God nor the occurrence of Biblical creation have been shown to be facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:24 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 8:22 AM Rand Al'Thor has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 245 of 321 (108098)
05-14-2004 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by coffee_addict
05-14-2004 1:27 AM


So that further stregthens my point.
But it all comes down to the way you look at it.
We are mostly on the same page now as far as TOE not being proven.
Also TOE should not be used to believe or not belive in God.
agreed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by coffee_addict, posted 05-14-2004 1:27 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Asgara, posted 05-14-2004 1:42 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 247 by coffee_addict, posted 05-14-2004 1:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 246 of 321 (108099)
05-14-2004 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by riVeRraT
05-14-2004 1:39 AM


Also TOE should not be used to believe or not belive in God.
Excellent point hun.
And amazingly, it works both ways. Belief in god should in no way be used to dismiss the decades of work that have gone into researching one of the most important scientific theories of all times.
Take care, I'm off to bed.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:44 AM Asgara has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 247 of 321 (108100)
05-14-2004 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by riVeRraT
05-14-2004 1:39 AM


riverrat writes:
But it all comes down to the way you look at it.
We are mostly on the same page now as far as TOE not being proven.
Also TOE should not be used to believe or not belive in God.
agreed?
I never thought this would ever be possible. This clearly proves that pigs can fly.
But anyway, yes, I agree.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:50 AM coffee_addict has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 248 of 321 (108101)
05-14-2004 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Asgara
05-14-2004 1:35 AM


Yea but, the bacteria had several mutations all at the same time. The natural selection made them do it.
So why would only one human evolve at a time(if thats the case)?
Isn't there a slight difference there?
Doesn't it raise questions?
Isn't that what science is about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Asgara, posted 05-14-2004 1:35 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by coffee_addict, posted 05-14-2004 1:48 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 252 by Asgara, posted 05-14-2004 1:51 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 309 by Rrhain, posted 05-15-2004 2:06 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 249 of 321 (108102)
05-14-2004 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Asgara
05-14-2004 1:42 AM


Yep, thats been my point from the start, very well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Asgara, posted 05-14-2004 1:42 AM Asgara has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 250 of 321 (108103)
05-14-2004 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by riVeRraT
05-14-2004 1:43 AM


I'm studying for a final tomorrow, so I'm a little pumped up right now.
riverrat writes:
Yea but, the bacteria had several mutations all at the same time. The natural selection made them do it.
Nope. Mutations happen randomly without any purpose. Natural selection makes sure that the right mutants survive.
So why would only one human evolve at a time(if thats the case)?
People don't evolve individually. The smallest unit that can evolve is a population. However, individuals can have mutations, which contribute to the evolution of the population.
Isn't there a slight difference there?
Not if you look at the overall result.
Doesn't it raise questions?
Sure, it raises a lot of questions, just not the ones that you are thinking of.
Isn't that what science is about?
I'm officially lost. Isn't what is what now?

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:54 AM coffee_addict has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 251 of 321 (108104)
05-14-2004 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by coffee_addict
05-14-2004 1:43 AM


lmao LAM.
Whos the rational one now? lol.
I got in an uproar in the begining of this thread because it seemed that some would be using the TOE or science in general for not taking the challenge, or believing in God. Thats a sore subject to me. I feel I have a calling to the scientifical society.
When you have something that is as beautiful as what I feel, you feel a need to share it with your fellow man. Its just as significant as a great scientifical discovery. It's all done out of Love.
Peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by coffee_addict, posted 05-14-2004 1:43 AM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Rrhain, posted 05-15-2004 2:08 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 252 of 321 (108105)
05-14-2004 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by riVeRraT
05-14-2004 1:43 AM


(ok...so I lied, I'm NOT going to bed)
Nothing was said about the number of mutations. Natural selection doesn't "make" anything happen, it just selects that which has already happened.
I like to use the analogy of a Yahtzee game. You role the dice and this represents the alleles in a population. Now you are natural selection, you pick the die you want to keep for the next role. ( but don't take this to mean that natural selection is making a conscious choice)
As far as only one human evolving at a time, this is not what is being said. Individuals do not evolve. They keep the same genes throughout their life. Evolution is a change in the frequency of alleles in a population over time. A population is what evolves.
The only difference between the human population and the bacterial one is the speed of reproduction. A human generation might be 15 to 20 years while a bacteria might go through hundreds of generations an hour. (My times are probably way off, I'm sure one of the bio types here can be more specific)
Ok..NOW I'm going to bed

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 2:01 AM Asgara has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 253 of 321 (108106)
05-14-2004 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by coffee_addict
05-14-2004 1:48 AM


People don't evolve individually. The smallest unit that can evolve is a population. However, individuals can have mutations, which contribute to the evolution of the population.
Doesn't this contradict the theoretical Eve?
Raising questions is what science is about partly, then finding the answers, is what I am saying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by coffee_addict, posted 05-14-2004 1:48 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Sylas, posted 05-14-2004 1:58 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 263 by coffee_addict, posted 05-14-2004 2:15 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5259 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 254 of 321 (108107)
05-14-2004 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by riVeRraT
05-14-2004 1:24 AM


riVeRraT writes:
I hope you at least read this whole thread before you decided to call me dishonest.
Being dishonest goes against every fiber of my being at this point.
I believe I already proved that evolution is not fact. As a matter of fact you scientists proved it yourself with your own description of theory.
Calling evolution fact is a mis-interpretation of the English language. It also confuses people, and probably makes creationalists upset.
I consider you to be honest, but confused and mistaken.
Calling evolution a fact is a correct description of the status of evolution in the scientific community. You can disagree, of course, but this is a real point of disagreement. Asking for us to agree with a different perspective is simply failing to understand just how radically at odds are the views of yourself, and the views of conventional biologists. In science, evolution is regarded as fact; and as the theory explaining facts.
A good understanding of English and science also requires understanding that in science, the word "theory" properly means "explanation", not "hypothesis".
Evolution is fact in these two respects.
  1. It is a fact that we observe evolution occurring in the present. The experiment with bacteria is, as a matter of fact, an observation of evolution.
  2. It is a fact that living creatures have been around on earth for many millions of years; that the forms of life have changed dramatically over that time, and that creatures now living are related in form to very different creatures in the past.
The theory of evolution is the explanation of these facts, in terms of common descent from shared ancestors and the cumulative effect of the processes seen occurring in the present, as living forms change from generation to generation, and millennium to millennium. The two central effects (variation and selection) are both seen directly in the bacteria.
Confirming evidence to show that this theory is indeed a good explanation comes from study of genetics of living things, and nested patterns of similarity which make no sense in any framework other than diversification of lines of descent from common ancestors.
This evidence has been so powerfully confirming of the basic theoretical framework that there is no longer any credible basis for doubt in a third fundamental fact...
  • Similarity and change in forms observed in the fossil record reflect many hundreds of millions of years of diversification from shared ancestors, and reflect a real blood relationship of diverse living creatures today.
There is plenty that is still unknown. There are many lineages that are still open to varying interpretations. There is scope to reflect on additional processes that may contribute to the modulation of change over many generations. There is scope for refinement of models used in population genetics and speciation. And this is all scratching the surface. Evolutionary biology is a vibrant and active field of research.
Can we agree on this everyone, that what happened in the dish was a mutation?
So mutation is the fact, and evolution is the theory based on that fact and other facts.
What happened in the dish was both mutation and selection; and this is legitimately evolution. Evolution as a word is used both of the theory that explains how living forms change over time (including but not limited to the explanation of how these bacteria changed over the duration of the experiment) and evolution is also a word that refers to the fact of evolutionary change over time; of which these bacteria are a legitimate observed example.
Cheers — Sylas
(Edit for grammar and spelling)
This message has been edited by Sylas, 05-14-2004 04:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:24 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Sylas
Member (Idle past 5259 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 255 of 321 (108108)
05-14-2004 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by riVeRraT
05-14-2004 1:54 AM


riVeRraT writes:
Lam writes:
People don't evolve individually. The smallest unit that can evolve is a population. However, individuals can have mutations, which contribute to the evolution of the population.
Doesn't this contradict the theoretical Eve?
Not in the slightest. I have no idea how you think there is any contradiction; but if you try to explain why you think there is any conflict, I may be able to be more help.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 1:54 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2004 2:12 AM Sylas has replied

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