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Author Topic:   What is Your Worldview?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 76 of 108 (139864)
09-04-2004 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
09-04-2004 5:48 AM


Re: Clash of the Worldviews
Phatboy
Young people often have a fiery passion which makes them unafraid of war. War is part of human nature, and has always occurred. All of us need to examine our inner fire and attempt to understand it.
I do not remember who it was millenia ago who made the statement "The prospect of war is always compelling to those who are strangers to it."{Paraphrased} but I have always been fascinated by the seeming madness that people find some kind of good in going to war.It is a paradox that we send our young to fight on our behalf so that we who remain behind need not be bothered by it,though I believe that this will be chaging in the years to come and wars will be fought small scale on our home turf.
When I was in my 20's I happened to pick up a book on war poetry by two men one named Wilfred Owen and the other Sigfied Sassoon. They were both participants in WW1.They were in the thick of the worst of things and these are the warnings and messages they pass on.First we have Siegfried Sassoon
Suicide in the Trenches
I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.
In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With cramps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The Hell where youth and laughter go.
‘Blighters’
THE House is crammed: tier beyond tier they grin
And cackle at the Show, while prancing ranks
Of harlots shrill the chorus, drunk with din;
‘We’re sure the Kaiser loves our dear old Tanks!’
I’d like to see a Tank come down the stalls, 5
Lurching to rag-time tunes, or ‘Home, sweet Home’,
And there’d be no more jokes in Music-halls
To mock the riddled corpses round Bapaume.
THE EFFORT
'The effect of our bombardment was terrific. One man told me he had
never seen so many dead before.'--War Correspondent.
'HE'D never seen so many dead before.'
They sprawled in yellow daylight while he swore
And gasped and lugged his everlasting load
Of bombs along what once had been a road.
'How peaceful are the dead.'
Who put that silly gag in some one's head?
'He'd never seen so many dead before.'
The lilting words danced up and down his brain,
While corpses jumped and capered in the rain.
No, no; he wouldn't count them any more...
The dead have done with pain:
They've choked; they can't come back to life again.
When Dick was killed last week he looked like that,
Flapping along the fire-step like a fish,
After the blazing crump had knocked him flat...
'How many dead? As many as ever you wish.
Don't count 'em; they're too many.
Who'll buy my nice fresh corpses, two a penny?'
AFTERMATH
HAVE you forgotten yet?...
For the world's events have rumbled on since those gagged days,
Like traffic checked while at the crossing of city-ways:
And the haunted gap in your mind has filled with thoughts that flow
Like clouds in the lit heaven of life; and you're a man reprieved to go,
Taking your peaceful share of Time, with joy to spare.
But the past is just the same--and War's a bloody game...
Have you forgotten yet?...
Look down, and swear by the slain of the War that you'll never forget.
Do you remember the dark months you held the sector at Mametz--
The nights you watched and wired and dug and piled sandbags on parapets?
Do you remember the rats; and the stench
Of corpses rotting in front of the front-line trench--
And dawn coming, dirty-white, and chill with a hopeless rain?
Do you ever stop and ask, 'Is it all going to happen again?'
Do you remember that hour of din before the attack--
And the anger, the blind compassion that seized and shook you then
As you peered at the doomed and haggard faces of your men?
Do you remember the stretcher-cases lurching back
With dying eyes and lolling heads--those ashen-grey
Masks of the lads who once were keen and kind and gay?
Have you forgotten yet?...
Look up, and swear by the green of the spring that you'll never forget.
And then we have Wilfred Owen
Disabled
He sat in a wheeled chair, waiting for dark,
And shivered in his ghastly suit of grey,
Legless, sewn short at elbow. Through the park
Voices of boys rang saddening like a hymn,
Voices of play and pleasure after day,
Till gathering sleep had mothered them from him.
* * *
About this time Town used to swing so gay
When glow-lamps budded in the light blue trees,
And girls glanced lovelier as the air grew dim, -
In the old times, before he threw away his knees.
Now he will never feel again how slim
Girls' waists are, or how warm their subtle hands;
All of them touch him like some queer disease.
* * *
There was an artist silly for his face,
For it was younger than his youth, last year.
Now, he is old; his back will never brace;
He's lost his colour very far from here,
Poured it down shell-holes till the veins ran dry,
And half his lifetime lapsed in the hot race
And leap of purple spurted from his thigh.
* * *
One time he liked a blood-smear down his leg,
After the matches, carried shoulder-high.
It was after football, when he'd drunk a peg,
He thought he'd better join. - He wonders why.
Someone had said he'd look a god in kilts,
That's why; and may be, too, to please his Meg;
Aye, that was it, to please the giddy jilts
He asked to join. He didn't have to beg;
Smiling they wrote his lie; aged nineteen years.
Germans he scarcely thought of; all their guilt,
And Austria's, did not move him. And no fears
Of Fear came yet. He thought of jewelled hilts
For daggers in plaid socks; of smart salutes;
And care of arms; and leave; and pay arrears;
Esprit de corps; and hints for young recruits.
And soon, he was drafted out with drums and cheers.
* * *
Some cheered him home, but not as crowds cheer Goal.
Only a solemn man who brought him fruits
Thanked him; and then inquired about his soul.
* * *
Now, he will spend a few sick years in institutes,
And do what things the rules consider wise,
And take whatever pity they may dole.
To-night he noticed how the women's eyes
Passed from him to the strong men that were whole.
How cold and late it is! Why don't they come
And put him into bed? Why don't they come?
A Terre
(BEING THE PHILOSOPHY OF MANY SOLDIERS)
Sit on the bed. I'm blind, and three parts shell.
Be careful; can't shake hands now; never shall.
Both arms have mutinied against me, - brutes.
My fingers fidget like ten idle brats.
I tried to peg out soldierly, - no use!
One dies of war like any old disease.
This bandage feels like pennies on my eyes.
I have my medals? - Discs to meke eyes close.
My glorious ribbons? - Ripped from my own back
In scarlet shreds. (That's for your poetry book.)
A short life and a merry one, my buck!
We used to say we'd hate to live dead-old, -
Yet now... I'd willingly be puffy, bald,
And patriotic. Buffers catch from boys
At least the jokes hurled at them. I suppose
Little I'd ever teach a son, but hitting,
Shooting, war, hunting, all the arts of hurting.
Well that's what I learnt, - that, and making money.
Your fifty years ahead seem none too many?
Tell me how long I've got? God! For one year
To help myself to nothing more than air!
One Spring! Is one too good to spare, too long?
Spring wind would work its own way to my lung,
And grow me legs as quick as lilac-shoots.
My servant's lamed, but listen how he shouts!
When I'm lugged out, he'll still be good for that.
Here in this mummy-case, you know, I've thought
How well I might have swept his floors for ever.
I'd ask no nights off when the bustle's over,
Enjoying so the dirt. Who's prejudiced
Against a grimed hand when his own's quite dust,
Less live than specks that in the sun-shafts turn,
Less warm than dust that mixes with arms' tan?
I'd love to be a sweep, now, black as Town,
Yes, or a muckman. Must I be his load?
O Life, Life, let me breathe, - a dug-out rat!
Not worse than ours existences rats lead -
Nosing along at night down some safe rut,
They find a shell-proof home before they rot.
Dead men may envy living mites in cheese,
Or good germs even. Microbes have their joys,
And subdivide, and never come to death.
Certainly flowers have the easiest time on earth.
'I shall be one with nature, herb, and stone,'
Shelley would tell me. Shelley would be stunned:
The dullest Tommy hugs that fancy now.
'Pushing up daisies' is their creed, you know.
To grain, then, go my fat, to buds my sap,
For all the usefulness there is in soap.
D'you think the Boche will ever stew man-soup?
Some day, no doubt, if...
Friend, be very sure
I shall be better off with plants that share
More peaceably the meadow and the shower.
Soft rains will touch me, - as they could touch once,
And nothing but the sun shall make me ware.
Your guns may crash around me. I'll not hear;
Or, if I wince, I shall not know I wince.
Don't take my soul's poor comfort for your jest.
Soldiers may grow a soul when turned to fronds,
But here the thing's best left at home with friends.
My soul's a little grief, grappling your chest,
To climb your throat on sobs; easily chased
On other sighs and wiped by fresher winds.
Carry my crying spirit till it's weaned
To do without what blood remained these wounds.
Apologia pro Poemate Meo
I, too, saw God through mud, -
The mud that cracked on cheeks when wretches smiled.
War brought more glory to their eyes than blood,
And gave their laughs more glee than shakes a child.
Merry it was to laugh there -
Where death becomes absurd and life absurder.
For power was on us as we slashed bones bare
Not to feel sickness or remorse of murder.
I, too, have dropped off Fear -
Behind the barrage, dead as my platoon,
And sailed my spirit surging light and clear
Past the entanglement where hopes lay strewn;
And witnessed exultation -
Faces that used to curse me, scowl for scowl,
Shine and lift up with passion of oblation,
Seraphic for an hour; though they were foul.
I have made fellowships -
Untold of happy lovers in old song.
For love is not the binding of fair lips
With the soft silk of eyes that look and long,
By Joy, whose ribbon slips, -
But wound with war's hard wire whose stakes are strong;
Bound with the bandage of the arm that drips;
Knit in the webbing of the rifle-thong.
I have perceived much beauty
In the hoarse oaths that kept our courage straight;
Heard music in the silentness of duty;
Found peace where shell-storms spouted reddest spate.
Nevertheless, except you share
With them in hell the sorrowful dark of hell,
Whose world is but the trembling of a flare
And heaven but as the highway for a shell,
You shall not hear their mirth:
You shall not come to think them well content
By any jest of mine. These men are worth
Your tears. You are not worth their merriment.
Strange Meeting
It seemed that out of battle I escaped
Down some profound dull tunnel, long since scooped
Through granites which titanic wars had groined.
Yet also there encumbered sleepers groaned,
Too fast in thought or death to be bestirred.
Then ,as I probed them, one sprang up, and stared
With piteous recognition in fixed eyes,
Lifting distressful hands, as if to bless.
And by his smile, I knew that sullen hall, -
By his dead smile I knew we stood in Hell.
With a thousand pains that vision's face was grained;
Yet no blood reached there from the upper ground,
And no guns thumped, or down the flues made moan.
'Strange friend,' I said, 'here is no cause to mourn.'
'None,' said that other, 'save the undone years,
The hopelessness. Whatever hope is yours,
Was my life also; I went hunting wild
After the wildest beauty in the world,
Which lies not calm in eyes, or braided hair,
But mocks the steady running of the hour,
And if it grieves, grieves richlier than here.
For by my glee might many men have laughed,
And of my weeping something had been left,
Which must die now. I mean the truth untold,
The pity of war, the pity war distilled.
Now men will go content with what we spoiled,
Or, discontent, boil bloody, and be spilled.
They will be swift with swiftness of the tigress.
None will break ranks, though nations trek from progress.
Courage was mine, and I had mystery,
Wisdom was mine, and I had mastery:
To miss the march of this retreating world
Into vain citadels that are not walled.
Then, when much blood had clogged their chariot-wheels,
I would go up and wash them from sweet wells,
Even with truths that lie too deep for taint.
I would have poured my spirit without stint
But not through wounds; not on the cess of war.
Foreheads of men have bled where no wounds were.
I am the enemy you killed, my friend.
I knew you in this dark: for so you frowned
Yesterday through me as you jabbed and killed.
I parried; but my hands were loath and cold.
Let us sleep now...'
The Next War
Out there, we've walked quite friendly up to Death;
Sat down an eaten with him, cool and bland, -
Pardoned his spilling mess-tins in our hand.
We've sniffed the green thick odour of his breath, -
Our eyes wept, but our courage didn't writhe.
He's spat at us with bullets and he's coughed
Shrapnel. We chorused when he sang aloft;
We whistled while he shaved us with his scythe.
Oh, Death was never enemy of ours!
We laughed at him, we leagued with him, old chum.
No soldier's paid to kick against his powers.
We laughed, knowing that better men would come,
And greater wars; when each proud fighter brags
He wars on Death - for lives; not men - for flags.
Dulce Et Decorum Est
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! - An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, -
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
It is my belief that war contributes no good to either nation or individual and I also am aware that young people will always go to war with the patriotism and sense of duty instilled by others. I would not mind so much if the leaders from the head of the nations involved on down were on the front line within range of a bullet participating with the same willingness they ask of their troops.How long do you believe a war would last then?
And yet I live under the mantle of protection offered by such and I am cognizant of this,but I feel that war cannot solve the distrust but only amplify it.Far more profound change is needed in the interplay between nations before we can quell the outrage of slaughter.My thinking is that it is a simple thing to do that no one will attempt because it requires the trust that the other side will participate in preventing war by giving it up.
Humans desire their pound of flesh and I do not think that will ever change.I wish Hangdawg well in his choice.It is though,as my father told me,what you must live with and not bitch about when a choice does not gain you what you thought it would.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 09-04-2004 5:48 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by lfen, posted 09-04-2004 2:31 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 85 by Hangdawg13, posted 09-06-2004 9:45 PM sidelined has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 77 of 108 (139880)
09-04-2004 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by sidelined
09-04-2004 12:55 PM


The Battle of Hastings
I am remembering the title of the book as: 1066 the Story of a Year, but not finding it so I'm misrembering it. Anyway, check out that year and the battles in England, especially the battle of Hastings. That was a time when the Kings stood with their armies and fought and died on the field of battle. Herald or Norway and Herald of England both perished on the battlefield.
But those were different times.
But then do a search on Ashoka who after a battle that resulted in horrendous casualities converted to Buddhism and a reign dedicated to peace and compassion. They have begun to translate the inscriptions that he left over the land.
But warfare has been a feature of most societies to varying degrees. On the other hand I'm all for postive alternatives and think we should keep trying.
What I don't understand really is that Paul and many early christians were certain Christ would return within the lifetime of those still living, but the failure of the second coming did not falsify the prophecy. Starting from the conviction that bibical prophesies are all accurate than any perceived failure is simply a failure not of the prophecy, which can't be falsified by prior assumption, and is therefore a failure in interpretation. Thus it seems to mean Christianity is resigned to war as that is how the world is assumed to end. I say in another millenium who knows what we will come up with, if the pollution doesn't get us first.
lfen
ACK! Edited because I am very confused this morning. I had thought I was replying to something Phatboy said, not Sidelined's post and now I can't even find what post of Phatboy's I thought I was replying to. I stand by the statements here, but I can't find the post I'm referring to. My apologies to all. lfen
This message has been edited by lfen, 09-04-2004 01:38 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by sidelined, posted 09-04-2004 12:55 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by berberry, posted 09-08-2004 12:54 AM lfen has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 78 of 108 (139888)
09-04-2004 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hangdawg13
09-04-2004 2:44 AM


Re: Water the Poor[qs]I admire more than anything else those who give their all even
Would you be precise about what you believe Jesus did? What did he give? And why was it a gift?
He allowed himself to be subjected to some of the worst possible physical torture before dying physically. The physical torture was symbolic, so that we can somewhat understand the mental/spiritual pain of being separated from God and judged by God for our sins. He gave his physical and (temporarily) his spiritual life as a substitute for us, so that we might know the depth of God's love for us, and have forgiveness in repentance. The gift: eternal life with God, and freedom from sin.
Hangdawg, thanks for replying even when tired. But note get your rest. Posting here can always wait, your body and brain both need a good nights sleep, so please don't ever push yourself on my account.
Scourging and crucifiction are tortuous death. And Christians believe God sacrificed his son just as fathers around the world to this day sacrifice their sons in the wars that they send them to, so it makes sense to me that psychologically this sacrifice makes sense to humans as they've been doing the same thing for a long time.
Jesus suffered on the cross horribly but other humans have and continue to suffer as horrible or more. In countries around the world torture has continued, and there are some diseases that produced terrible suffering not only physically but also psychosis. So God was willing to an extreme but not the most extreme degree partake in what humans do. I find this logic so disheartening. Supposedly God and Jesus knew about the plan. I am personally appalled that so many people suffer on earth, children of malnutrition, disease and war and I just don't think what God and Jesus went through can redeem what humans go through even if it could compare to human suffering which to my mind it doesn't.
Christianity like Judaism before as a religion uses the "guilt trip" to manipulate people. Christianity wants us to feel guilty and believe what we are told because Christ died for us. But how many humans have died as horrible or a more horrible death than Jesus. What doesn't God feel guilty? Why are we guilty and God isn't? And the answer is because the priest class then couldn't manipulate us. They couldn't say well a bad thing happened because you were not good enough or didn't believe enough,nope, keep sacrificing the cows, or paying the tithe cause you are guilty and we have the power and you have to do what we say and support us. This is the cost of religion. Yes, mental health, anxiety reduction, etc. but the priests get to guilt trip you for deviating, like studying science and finding their age of the earth doesn't add up. And if you question their story? If you ask well, is it that big a sacrifice if you get it all back 3 days later? And who asked for that sacrifice anyway? It wasn't me! well, I get to go to hell questioning the priest story, no disagreements allowed, either follow the party line or it's straight to hell with you, daring to think instead of parroting what we tell you.
Why wouldn't God send a teacher like the Buddha to live and teach among the people for decades instead of a incident lost to history buried in myth and conflicting scriptures? The core of the christian assertion is mired in self contradiction hallowed by centuries of authority.
That is my rant, and it's not about you, but it is about what I find so tragically false and twisted about Christian doctrine.
[Aside to Jar, I've probably overgeneralized this and I apologize if I have. And I will deserve correction as you provided before if I have lumped unfairly christian beliefs in here. I have at time a passionate nature and I'm not writing my most rational here. This is just my statement of my deepest reaction to what I percieve as the most irrational demands that the christian religion puts on people. This is my statement of why I'm not a christian. Now I know there are many christians for whom this is not a central concern and their religion supports them in living a loving life everyday, and I know some of these people and love them.]
So I'm not attacking the people but I have to say I find the central tenants of the religon appalling in attributing barbarous religious practises i.e. human sacrifice to the source of the universe and barbarous miracles like a virgin birth. And I am disappointed that so many people find that explanation compelling. As metaphor I understand they have a function, but as actualities, how could I possibly believe this stuff? Why would anyone want to?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hangdawg13, posted 09-04-2004 2:44 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Hangdawg13, posted 09-06-2004 9:01 PM lfen has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 108 (140274)
09-06-2004 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Hangdawg13
09-04-2004 3:59 AM


Re: Water the Poor
quote:
By those words above, I assume you believe that America should not have existed or needs to be stopped as a global power. I mean I would certainly be all for de-fanging or even destroying a tyrranical "muderous agressor state". If so, why do YOU not do something about it? Just what are your convictions? Do you have any? Are you prepared give your all, even your life to stand up for what you believe?
Of course, Dawg - I most certainly do call for the defanging of the USA, and am a member of a organisation that acvtively seeks to overthrow western capitalism and its aggressor states, by violence if necessary.
quote:
...okay, sorry, just had to get that out of my system...
Basically, you're worldview is divorced from reality... eh.. I'm too tired to type anymore. Alright, your worldview sux... there.. that pretty much sums up my opinions on the matter
Of course it does - becuase you are an ignorant buffoon comfortable beleiving the popular and conventional wisdoms that surround you, unable to think outsiode the box or develop any sort of moral analysis of your own. Hence, the assumptions and ad hominems to which you easily leap, a short hop to the use of violence against me given how "irrational" I must be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Hangdawg13, posted 09-04-2004 3:59 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 09-06-2004 9:14 AM contracycle has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 108 (140275)
09-06-2004 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Hangdawg13
09-04-2004 4:13 AM


Re: Water the Poor
quote:
I hope to go into the Marine Corps and fight for what I believe in and serve the nation that stands for those principles that I believe in.
I see, so you are not any sort of christian at all. Or at least, only the kind that proves that christianity is a religion of hatred and violence.
quote:
Let's see, you can't kill me (you're a pacifist)
I've never claimed to be a pacifist, in fact I have argued pacifism is a pathology. But never mind - after all, your position is not based on thinking about the argument - you just believe what you are told to believe.
quote:
I don't see you "rising up to overthrow the tyrranical regime that reigns death on so many countries," or standing on the "barricades of -- [whatever]".
Baloney - I have fought in demos. But my primary methodology is not violent not because of moral concerns, but becuase of efficiency concerns.
Once again we see the alleged christian, the alleged follower of a doctrine of peace and love, casting stones at those who criticise routione state coercion by violence. As IO have argued before, christinaity is mostly about being a Good Citizen, and Dawg, like a Good Citizen, believes what his state tells him without doubt, and actively desires to be a murderer and bullet-catcher for the state. Christianity is a religion of hate and violence - as in fact are ALL the religions of the book. And christians, as I remarked earlier, share one abiding consistent feature: murderous hypocrisy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Hangdawg13, posted 09-04-2004 4:13 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Hangdawg13, posted 09-06-2004 8:18 PM contracycle has not replied
 Message 99 by berberry, posted 09-08-2004 1:25 AM contracycle has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 108 (140276)
09-06-2004 6:41 AM


(Instrumental)
(Switch Channels)
[Alf Razzell:]
"Two things that have haunted me most are the days when I had to
collect the paybooks; and when I left Bill Hubbard in no-man's-land."
"I was picked up and taken into their trench. And I'd no sooner taken
two or three steps down the trench when I heard a call, 'Hello Razz,
I'm glad to see you. This is my second night here,' and he said 'I'm
feeling bad,' and it was Bill Hubbard, one of the men we'd trained
in England, one of the original battalion. I had a look at his wound,
rolled him over; I could see it was probably a fatal wound. You could
imagine what pain he was in, he was dripping with sweat; and after
I'd gone about three shellholes, traversed that, had it been...had
there been a path or a road I could have done better. He pummeled
me, 'Put me down, put me down, I'd rather die, I'd rather die, put me
down.' I was hoping he would faint. He said 'I can't go any further,
let me die.' I said 'If I leave you here Bill you won't be found, let's have another go.' He said 'All right then.' And the same thing
happened; he couldn't stand it any more, and I had to leave him
there, in no-man's-land."
(Switch channels)
(Girl) "I don't mind about the war, that's one of the things I like to watch, if it's a war going on, 'cause then I know if our side's winning, if our side's losing..."
(Switch channels)

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 108 (140283)
09-06-2004 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by contracycle
09-06-2004 6:24 AM


WAR OF THE WORDS
Matt 24:34-35= Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Words are powerful! They can carry a statement and a passion far more effectively than any bomb or missle. Contracyle, you know this for you say
my primary methodology is not violent not because of moral concerns, but becuase of efficiency concerns.
When I was in college, I knew a young revolutionary named Micah. He was all for communism as a progressive and fair system of government. I, of course, having been raised in the suburbs of America, staunchly disagreed with him. I pointed out how all communist systems thus far have caused more harm than good to their citizens and how when Capitalism was introduced, there was much cheering.
Russia is experiencing many setbacks yet many victories with market economics.
Of course, you would advocate:
defanging of the USA
and, thus, believe that the world has no need of a lone superpower. As far as
beleiving the popular and conventional wisdoms that surround you, unable to think outside the box or develop any sort of moral analysis of your own.
I see your point. I DO try and look at things outside my comfort zone of freedom that my country has given me. I DO see a world that has too few people with too much money and too many people without. As a Christian, I have seen many people who never really lived the precepts that Jesus taught except on a superficial "church face" type of mentality.
Many others were successful businessmen who truly felt that God had blessed the environment in which they and their families resided. When asked about poverty abroad, they would ask rhetorically, "why can't they adopt the free market system and allow their people to raise up on their own like we did?
Then I heard about Wal-mart and cheap labor in China allowing us to buy $7.99 toasters and $40.00 microwaves. For this, people were working for $5.00 a day and less. Meanwhile, the stories came in about American C.E.O.s raking in hundreds of millions of dollars. I was employed at a company that was unionized and after 14 years I made a decent wage and was saving for a future. The C.E.O.s sold the company and laid off a thousand of us.
Unlike you, Contracycle, I have no problem with true Christianity, however. I looked at the Bible and I saw this:
NIV writes:
Rev 18:2-5="Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great! She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evil spirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird. For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries." Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes.
Was America a type and shadow of this Babylon? Many people think so, but I DO have a brain and so I will not randomly make the mistake of making scriptures fit circumstance. I will say that the 9/11 attacks brought reality into the home of every American.The poor of the world are not as ignorant as they used to be. Contracycle, I do not know if your loyalty is to a country or to a people or maybe just to an ideology, but I may remind you that if the masses of people from the less affluent countries ever did see America fall apart economically, the result would be more death and more poverty and hunger than ever before! The solution is more complex than merely defanging the U.S. and redistributing the wealth of the world. The solution is Spiritual.
Are you an atheist, contracycle? If so, (which I am not attacking, by the way) I think that you had better have a better plan than Marx and Hegel. John Lennon was once asked why he did not help the starving poor of the world with his 150 million dollar fortune. He replied that he did believe in helping them, but were he to literally spend the money on feeding them, they would be hungry again in a week and he would be broke.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-06-2004 08:15 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by contracycle, posted 09-06-2004 6:24 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by contracycle, posted 09-07-2004 5:21 AM Phat has replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 83 of 108 (140494)
09-06-2004 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by contracycle
09-06-2004 6:30 AM


Re: Water the Poor
Post deleted to avoid getting in an extremely petty and most "un-Christian-like" argument.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 09-06-2004 07:19 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by contracycle, posted 09-06-2004 6:30 AM contracycle has not replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 84 of 108 (140508)
09-06-2004 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by lfen
09-04-2004 3:20 PM


Re: Water the Poor[qs]I admire more than anything else those who give their all even
Thank you for your reply.
Scourging and crucifiction are tortuous death. And Christians believe God sacrificed his son just as fathers around the world to this day sacrifice their sons in the wars that they send them to, so it makes sense to me that psychologically this sacrifice makes sense to humans as they've been doing the same thing for a long time.
Well, yes, I agree it is powerfully psychologically, but it just makes sense rationally to me. I can't imagine a more selfless act than one person giving his life for another. I mean, you're forfeiting whatever future you have in place of another regardless of whether or not that person deserves to live more than you.
Jesus suffered on the cross horribly but other humans have and continue to suffer as horrible or more. In countries around the world torture has continued, and there are some diseases that produced terrible suffering not only physically but also psychosis. So God was willing to an extreme but not the most extreme degree partake in what humans do. I find this logic so disheartening.
I definately realize Jesus' physical suffering was not the most extreme that a person can experience. But his the suffering caused by his spiritual death in the judgement for all the sins of humanity is what is supposed to be so unimaginably painful. There were many things that came out of this, but one thing was to show us how much God cares about us.
I just don't think what God and Jesus went through can redeem what humans go through even if it could compare to human suffering which to my mind it doesn't.
If you are looking at it as, Jesus' pain had to be at least x times greater than the greatest physical pain a person can experience to redeem us, then I agree. However, I don't believe that is the case. Redemption is not a product of pain. It is a product of propitiation: the justice and righteousness of God being satsified. We can have God's Spirit and begin our spiritual life while still in this physical life. When we die we will continue living because we have already been redeemed. "There will be no more sorrow, no more tears, no more pain, no more death, for the old things have passed away."
Christianity like Judaism before as a religion uses the "guilt trip" to manipulate people. Christianity wants us to feel guilty and believe what we are told because Christ died for us.
I disagree with this. I'm sure some people may try to be holy for a little while because they feel guilty about Chirst dying for them, but guilt motivation is not living in the Spirit's power; infact, guilt is a sin. For me, Christ's death teaches me a lot of things including humility and love for God. It is because I love God that I am motivated to live the way I live, not because I feel bad that he went to so much trouble to help me out.
This is the cost of religion. Yes, mental health, anxiety reduction, etc.
I completely agree with. And here I must use that old cliche you're probably sick of hearing, "Christianity isn't a religion; its a relationship." Until you've experienced it and understood it, you can't possibly know what I mean. I have no guilt on my conscience. I have great self-esteem, yet my self-esteem isn't based on my fallible human qualities. It's based on my relationship with God. The more I realize how nothing I am, the more I realize how great God is, and the more I love Him, and the more self-esteem I have. It doesn't make any human sense at all, but thats how it works. His power is made perfect in weakness.
Why wouldn't God send a teacher like the Buddha to live and teach among the people for decades instead of a incident lost to history buried in myth and conflicting scriptures?
Thats a good question, but if you think about the way God likes to do things... it makes sense. God almost never does things the way you expect him to. And I would hardly say it was an incident lost to history and buried in myth. Even if we throw the gospels out, the Christ's message can be found throughout the rest of the whole Bible.
So I'm not attacking the people but I have to say I find the central tenants of the religon appalling in attributing barbarous religious practises i.e. human sacrifice to the source of the universe and barbarous miracles like a virgin birth.
Except Christ was the only "human" sacrifice ever demanded of God except for Abraham's son, but God spared both. Death could not keep its hold on Christ and Abraham was stopped by the angel of the Lord just in time.
As metaphor I understand they have a function, but as actualities, how could I possibly believe this stuff?
Well, I'd say if there is a supreme being that can create the laws of the universe, he can also disobey the laws he creates on occasion.
The entire purpose of these events is so that we can understand our creator, know how to live with Him, and understand the purpose for life with all its struggles and prosperity.
That is my rant, and it's not about you
Thats perfectly fine. I understand your problems with Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by lfen, posted 09-04-2004 3:20 PM lfen has not replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 85 of 108 (140520)
09-06-2004 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by sidelined
09-04-2004 12:55 PM


Re: Clash of the Worldviews
Hi Sidelined,
but I feel that war cannot solve the distrust but only amplify it.
I respectfully disagree with your views about war.
Not always is war fought between two noble adversaries. Sometimes one adversary in no way deserves trust, and sometimes trusting such an adversary would have disasterous consequences.
War is sometimes though not always a product of misunderstandings and socio/economic differences. Some people just want power and money. The attainment of these things is their primary goal in life. Whatever virtues they held are no longer evident as their all-consuming lust drives them to attack conquer and destroy peaceful peoples. No amount of "trusting" them will change this. It will only open the door for them to freely indulge their lusts by whatever means they deem necessary. This has been the case historically.
WWI was such a stupidly fought war. There are few things more detrimental to a soldier's morale than lack of sense of purpose and accomplishment. Sitting in wet muddy trenches and getting bombed and shot to hell had to be one of the most hellish war experiences imaginable.
However, just because wars are sometimes incredibly pointless and moronically fought does not mean that reason and goodness will prevail and wars will cease. There will always be some power-mad idiot who must be put down for the good of people and society. So once we accept this, then we can accept that the best way to save life and preserve freedom is to be absolutely prepared for these kinds of wild cards, and then help recovering countries to maintain freedom in order to prevent another tyrranical regime from sprouting up from the fertile soils of a poverty-stricken mal-content people. By being on top of the war-game we will prevent events like WWI and WWII which grew so out of hand because the powers that be thought that ignoring a threat and appeasement would cause the threat to disappear. In the years leading up to WWII, Winston Churchill was the one voice of reason crying out to all those who were of the same pacifist opinions. "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeate it." If we do not remember the lessons of WWI and WWII, we will have WWIII on our hands in no time; and WWIII will be MUCH MUCH uglier than WWI and WWII combined.
but I have always been fascinated by the seeming madness that people find some kind of good in going to war.
I understand that war is hell. I'm a peacelover (though I am really competitive), and I know what its like to lose a best friend in a pointless death. But I won't deny that there is some good that can come out of war. Much needless pain and suffering results no doubt; but war throws all those invisible qualities and struggles of the human experience into a visible high relief. You should talk to some Marines that have come back from Iraq. They know why they are there and they are glad to be there even though it is dangerous and uncomfortable. There is a reason why soldiers volunteer to go back and serve in harm's way for two or three or more tours. They believe in what they are fighting for and see the progress they are making.
And yet I live under the mantle of protection offered by such and I am cognizant of this
I'm glad you appreciate what you have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by sidelined, posted 09-04-2004 12:55 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by contracycle, posted 09-07-2004 5:28 AM Hangdawg13 has replied
 Message 96 by nator, posted 09-08-2004 12:36 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 108 (140598)
09-07-2004 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
09-06-2004 9:14 AM


Re: WAR OF THE WORDS
quote:
Contracycle, I do not know if your loyalty is to a country or to a people or maybe just to an ideology, but I may remind you that if the masses of people from the less affluent countries ever did see America fall apart economically, the result would be more death and more poverty and hunger than ever before!
Thats just nonsense, phatboy - those states are pouring wrealth into the USA. If the USA disapeared in a puff of smoke tomorrow, the world would be better off. Europe has already replaced the US as the buyer of last resort - Amricas influence is almost exclusively military these days, and that only by having being the most militarisitic of OECD states and spending the greatest proportion of GDP on arms. Further, your commentary on the introduction of capitalism and problems of capitalism et al are straight out of the McCarthy textbooks and I can only recommend you do some real reading.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 09-06-2004 9:14 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 09-07-2004 5:27 AM contracycle has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 87 of 108 (140599)
09-07-2004 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by contracycle
09-07-2004 5:21 AM


Re: WAR OF THE WORDS
Well...I never read McCarthy and I dare say I am not THAT conservative, but you never answered my question....where is your loyalty and why? I am just curious...I do not intend to judge you.
I have known some cool leftists in my day, but we did not agree because they thought that human nature was essentially good and I disagreed. They thought like you that Christianity was a tool of control, and while it has been used as such, I saw that they had never experienced real spiritual transformation. Still, we are friends...they respect me and I respect them.
Another question for you: What type of reading and education have you had? I know it is not McCarthy! Me either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by contracycle, posted 09-07-2004 5:21 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by contracycle, posted 09-07-2004 5:31 AM Phat has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 108 (140600)
09-07-2004 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Hangdawg13
09-06-2004 9:45 PM


Re: Clash of the Worldviews
quote:
War is sometimes though not always a product of misunderstandings and socio/economic differences. Some people just want power and money. The attainment of these things is their primary goal in life. Whatever virtues they held are no longer evident as their all-consuming lust drives them to attack conquer and destroy peaceful peoples. No amount of "trusting" them will change this. It will only open the door for them to freely indulge their lusts by whatever means they deem necessary. This has been the case historically
It has been, and it is. But Dawg, your patriotism blinds you to the truth: it is America that fights for money, that invades in the name of Mammon, and that is the same state you proclaim you would proudly serve. You are either a hypocrite or a fool.
quote:
I'm a peacelover
No, you are not. A peacelover does not argue for war - they argue for peace. You are a war-lover.
quote:
So once we accept this, then we can accept that the best way to save life and preserve freedom is to be absolutely prepared for these kinds of wild cards, and then help recovering countries to maintain freedom in order to prevent another tyrranical regime from sprouting up from the fertile soils of a poverty-stricken mal-content people.
That is exactly like the speech of any Imperialist. People must be conquered and subjefcted in the name of "freedom". Yet more hypocrisy.
quote:
You should talk to some Marines that have come back from Iraq. They know why they are there and they are glad to be there even though it is dangerous and uncomfortable. There is a reason why soldiers volunteer to go back and serve in harm's way for two or three or more tours. They believe in what they are fighting for and see the progress they are making.
Their personal delusions are irrelevant - whatever moralistic apologetics they offer for being agents of imperialism and occupying powers, the evil of their actions does not go away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Hangdawg13, posted 09-06-2004 9:45 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Hangdawg13, posted 09-07-2004 12:45 PM contracycle has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 108 (140601)
09-07-2004 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
09-07-2004 5:27 AM


Re: WAR OF THE WORDS
quote:
Well...I never read McCarthy
Fox News and the History Channel have read it for you, don't worry.
quote:
and I dare say I am not THAT conservative, but you never answered my question....where is your loyalty and why? I am just curious...I do not intend to judge you.
I don't have loyalty to anything much. States are coercive, religions are lies. I am an atheist and a marxist, and if anything my operational principles are those of Lenin: "distrust the bourgeoisie, control your leaders, and rely on your revolutionary strength".
quote:
What type of reading and education have you had?
My own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 09-07-2004 5:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-07-2004 5:37 AM contracycle has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 108 (140603)
09-07-2004 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by contracycle
09-07-2004 5:31 AM


Re: WAR OF THE WORDS
contracycle writes:
...if anything my operational principles are those of Lenin: "distrust the bourgeoisie, control your leaders, and rely on your revolutionary strength".
So lets say that somehow, the revolution succeeded and the whole world was marxist. What type of a Utopian society do you envision? Do you trust human nature that much?
BTW I checked out that report entitled "Guns or Growth". Human nature at its finest!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-07-2004 05:22 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by contracycle, posted 09-07-2004 5:31 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by contracycle, posted 09-07-2004 10:25 AM Phat has replied

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