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Author Topic:   What is Your Worldview?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 108 (138235)
08-30-2004 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by MrHambre
08-30-2004 2:03 PM


Whats your signature,Esteban?
Mr. Hambre...greetings. I like many of your posts, particularly the verbal jousts with Dan Carroll..have you guys considered reality T.V.? Anyway, I am curious as to how to address you after this last post of yours. Shall I call you, Esteban"pitiless indifference" Hambre or shall I refer to you as Esteban "It must be so" Hambre..?
In other words, are you proposing a Worldview of total and stark natural selection, devoid of any supernatural or spiritual reality whatsoever? Or are you merely being the old "Quotidian" that enlightens with afternoon cut and paste theatre? (I'm kinda like that, too!) Curiously, Phatboy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by MrHambre, posted 08-30-2004 2:03 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by MrHambre, posted 08-30-2004 10:38 PM Phat has not replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 17 of 108 (138310)
08-30-2004 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
08-30-2004 7:11 PM


Non-TV Reality
Phatboy,
I assume you were joking about the "verbal jousts" ‘twixt me and the Windy City’s favorite son Dan Carroll. I admit our repartee has all the tense drama and scathing wit of an Amish rake fight. Now that his preferred sparring partner Mike the Wiz is back, I’m off the hook.
Okay, so the warm and fuzzy Dawkins quote leaves a little to be desired in the originality department. Allow me to elucidate. It’s a superficial parlor game to pay lip service to spiritual and supernatural ‘realities’ that exist only in the Disneyfied corners of our pampered imaginations. It’s downright insulting to be told (as per your OP) that we can only reach our potential by embracing the believer’s delusions.
By looking at this world in a realistic, rational way, and admitting the cruelty and purposelessness of it, I’m trying to emphasize the responsibility we share in improving the things we can. I deplore the seemingly inexhaustible appeal of the I’ll-pay-you-back-after-you-die scam, which never fails to make people want to suffer and make others suffer through this brief time we have on our admittedly wondrous world. If you think my worldview is bleak, just look at your own.
Regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 08-30-2004 7:11 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by lfen, posted 09-01-2004 2:01 AM MrHambre has not replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 18 of 108 (138339)
08-31-2004 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by MrHambre
08-30-2004 2:03 PM


Mr Hambre, I could just as readily say that during the minute it takes me to write this post people are being helped, cold evil hearts of men are being changed, friends are comforting each other in losses, friends are rejoicing in blessing, husbands and wives are blissfully joined in an intimate and loving relationship, poor and hungry are being fed and watered, and freedom and prosperity is being spread.
Dawkins' assessment of the physical universe is accurate. We live in a ruthless world. But somehow, the harsh nature of the physical universe ends, and the kingdom of heaven begins in the hearts and minds of those who are open to God's Spirit in all its goodness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by MrHambre, posted 08-30-2004 2:03 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 08-31-2004 5:25 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied
 Message 20 by MrHambre, posted 08-31-2004 9:17 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 108 (138358)
08-31-2004 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Hangdawg13
08-31-2004 1:43 AM


Picture Yourself in a Boat on a River......
Imagine a group of people in an Art Museum, admiring a painting. They all share the effect of having been touched by the work. Each may have an individual opinion on what the work means to them, and each point of view is equally valid and none more weighty or profound than any other. Now imagine the artist entering the room to speak. He begins to explain what he felt and experienced while painting the picture. He points out seemingly unconnected details. So is his view merely equally valid? I would argue that the artists point of view is a bit more profound and weighty than the opinions by the observers.
To a Christian, God is the artist. The sculptor. The writer. Indeed, the Director, Producer, and truly The Creator.He wrote the words. He defined the very concept and definition of meaning behind words. He created us as vessels of expression for a purpose. We are not merely evolved animals, for a Divine purpose exists. Sidelined once said to me that it is the dance that is important, and not the dancers. I disagree. The Creator loves His dancers. The universe is real, it is unimaginable, mysterious, and a true work of art.Let us allow the Creator to explain what He mean't. What He wants. Who He is. Who we are. Keep exploring and keep seeking by all means, but ask yourselves what answer you are seeking. We seek to know ourselves yet we are not mere observers in this creation. We too are part of the artwork. Cuz we sure did'nt paint it and we never can explain it like the artist can! (Another peek at my Worldview!)
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-31-2004 10:01 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-31-2004 1:43 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 20 of 108 (138384)
08-31-2004 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Hangdawg13
08-31-2004 1:43 AM


Water the Poor
Hangdawg opines:
quote:
We live in a ruthless world. But somehow, the harsh nature of the physical universe ends, and the kingdom of heaven begins in the hearts and minds of those who are open to God's Spirit in all its goodness.
Since 9/11/01, my patience with this sort of touchy-feely nonsense has evaporated. I'd have to say that religious belief only perpetuates and reinforces the cynicism and cruelty of this ruthless world. An avowed faith in God's Spirit merely allows the believer to rationalize the suffering of others as a product of divine will; to play it safe until the big payoff on Judgment Day; and to ridicule non-believers as the deluded ones.
You're the one who has taken it upon himself to tell atheists that our lives are devoid of meaning and purpose. For someone who considers this life just a rehearsal for the afterlife, you've got balls.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-31-2004 1:43 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-31-2004 8:14 PM MrHambre has replied
 Message 26 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-31-2004 8:15 PM MrHambre has not replied
 Message 29 by lfen, posted 09-01-2004 2:11 AM MrHambre has replied
 Message 34 by Peter, posted 09-01-2004 9:37 AM MrHambre has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 108 (138387)
08-31-2004 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
08-26-2004 9:42 AM


I do NOT take the Bible literally, although I very much take the philosophy behind it as literal.
So PB, according to my dictionary as to the meaning of literal are we to assume you don't take such things as the following literally?
The virgin birth, physical resurrection of Jesus, healings, water to wine, raising of the dead, parting of the sea and plagues of Exodus, Lot's wife to salt, actual places in the universe called Heaven and Hell, death of Ananias and Saphira, walking on the water, feeding of the five thousand, et al.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 08-26-2004 9:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 08-31-2004 10:16 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 23 by MrHambre, posted 08-31-2004 10:19 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 08-31-2004 10:39 AM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 108 (138397)
08-31-2004 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
08-31-2004 9:45 AM


The virgin birth, physical resurrection of Jesus, healings, water to wine, raising of the dead, parting of the sea and plagues of Exodus, Lot's wife to salt, actual places in the universe called Heaven and Hell, death of Ananias and Saphira, walking on the water, feeding of the five thousand, et al.
Virgin Birth. Possibly.
Resurection of Jesus. I Believe.
Healings. Happens all the time.
Water to wine. Made a beer run.
Raising the dead. Unknown.
Parting the sea. Very unlikely.
Plagues of Exodus. Probably misinterpretation and exageration.
Lot's wif to salt. Very unlikely.
death of Ananias and Saphira. Almost certainly not true.
walking on the water. Parable.
feeding of the five thousand. Exageration.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 08-31-2004 9:45 AM Buzsaw has not replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 23 of 108 (138398)
08-31-2004 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
08-31-2004 9:45 AM


buz,
How could you forget Lazarus rising from the dead?
Do you take all that literally? According to Schraf's Paradox, The Bible is the literal word of God, because it says in the Bible that the Bible is the literal word of God. In other words, you have an autoconfirming construct for a worldview.
If the aim of religion is to make the believer accept things that he would otherwise reject through basic rational discernment, what does that say about the God who is the focus of this belief?
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 08-31-2004 9:45 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by nator, posted 09-07-2004 11:52 PM MrHambre has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 108 (138401)
08-31-2004 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
08-31-2004 9:45 AM


Inerrent in meaning and purpose
buzsaw writes:
So PB, according to my dictionary as to the meaning of literal are we to assume you don't take ...The virgin birth, physical resurrection of Jesus, healings, water to wine, raising of the dead, parting of the sea and plagues of Exodus, Lot's wife to salt, actual places in the universe called Heaven and Hell, death of Ananias and Saphira, walking on the water, feeding of the five thousand, et al.
I DO believe in a literal virgin birth,a literal death,burial,and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the various miracles attributed to Him. My faith is challenged a bit concerning some of what was recorded in the O.T. however. I most certainly think that God is capable of anything and that just because I see little supernatural activities around today,the capability is there. Lets take the great Flood, for instance. I have read both sides of this debate, and if I have any respect for human wisdom at all, I may be inclined to question whether or not such an event actually happened.
The fact is this: God was regretful for making Humanity. I question why He had not foreknown this fact. He chose one family to carry on the lineage and message. All plants and animals were to start over as well. In scientific terms, there are some valid questions about such an event. For example, did all plants die? Surely in a mere 3 month period, some stuff would survive! See? I question paradoxes of ancient lore. I do not question the DBR of Jesus Christ, because that is central to the faith, although I have read the critics of that one as well. Buz, I suppose that my view boils down to this:
The Bible is more than just a book, but some events are mysterious. The source of wisdom comes from God and not humanity, thus, I am unimpressed with a stark scientific approach.
Heb 11:1-2="Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see".(or understand)
I am not against scientific advances in understanding evolution. I see where many of the so-called strict creationists are backed into a corner of faith by defending a literalist interpretation. One has to pick and choose their battles. I defend a literal virgin birth, death, burial, and resurrection. Many say that theologians are uneducated and ignorant when defending their beliefs. I will admit that I DO believe that humanity is involved in an ongoing sort of spiritual skirmish that is undectable scientifically, apart from human observation. From a strictly evolutionary point of view, humans should be getting better at getting along, right? I do not see this happening anywhere in the world. The same dumb thinking behind WWI and Viet Nam, unrelated though they seem, is still there. Survival, indeed! It makes more sense to survive by giving up our ego and submitting to God...not to a manmade facsimile or theological construct, mind you. Of course, if one does not believe, One has no choice but to believe in Humanity refining themselves over time.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-31-2004 09:49 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 08-31-2004 9:45 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 25 of 108 (138620)
08-31-2004 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by MrHambre
08-31-2004 9:17 AM


Re: Water the Poor
Thank you for your reply.
Since 9/11/01, my patience with this sort of touchy-feely nonsense has evaporated. I'd have to say that religious belief only perpetuates and reinforces the cynicism and cruelty of this ruthless world.
And I'd have to respectfully disagree with you because everyone has beliefs, but not everyone is cynical, cruel, and ruthless. Although I've never been comfortable with that touchy-feely vernacular I've since found deeper meanings to the words describing "God's Spirit" so I think they are appropriate.
An avowed faith in God's Spirit merely allows the believer to rationalize the suffering of others as a product of divine will; to play it safe until the big payoff on Judgment Day; and to ridicule non-believers as the deluded ones.
Sure, just like a belief in freedom allows some to justify anarchy and antiestablishmentarianism (wow thats a big word); a belief in women's rights allows some to justify abortion; a belief in peace allows some to justify pacifism in face of an immanent military threat; a belief in hard work allows some to justify neglect of family;... do you get the picture?
"Faith without works is dead." What a person believes or says they believe may have nothing to do with kind of spirit they have and good they produce.
You're the one who has taken it upon himself to tell atheists that our lives are devoid of meaning and purpose. For someone who considers this life just a rehearsal for the afterlife, you've got balls.
...well... after my long and tedious debate with Holmes, I must include the modifier "external" to meaning and purpose to say that without God there is none because the LAST definition in the dictionary allows a kind of meaning and purpose to be found after the fact.
I'm not sure what you mean about the having balls and the after life part... I'm just stating what I believe the truth to be. More than anything else, I am interested in the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by MrHambre, posted 08-31-2004 9:17 AM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by MrHambre, posted 09-01-2004 5:14 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 26 of 108 (138621)
08-31-2004 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by MrHambre
08-31-2004 9:17 AM


Re: Water the Poor
ETA: copied by mistake.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 08-31-2004 07:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by MrHambre, posted 08-31-2004 9:17 AM MrHambre has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 27 of 108 (138705)
09-01-2004 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Hangdawg13
08-30-2004 2:53 AM


a greater life free from the corruption of the flesh.
Hangdawg,
I read that and then went now whaaaat? As in...
What do you define life to be? I mean the term is generally used to refer to organisms, cells, tissues, organs i.e. flesh.
And what is the corruption of the flesh? Disease,cancer, pus, urine, saliva, or are you refering to the drives that people have for sex and aggression?
If you have time I'd like your clarifications of life, corruption, and flesh.
Thanks!
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-30-2004 2:53 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Hangdawg13, posted 09-01-2004 3:45 AM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 28 of 108 (138707)
09-01-2004 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by MrHambre
08-30-2004 10:38 PM


Re: Non-TV Reality
It’s a superficial parlor game to pay lip service to spiritual and supernatural ‘realities’ that exist only in the Disneyfied corners of our pampered imaginations.
MrHambre,
Given the grim state of affairs discribe by Dawkins it's clear to me that religion is much more than a "superficial parlor game". It seems rather to be for many people a necessary illusion to maintain their motivation to cope with such a difficult life.
As Voltaire wrote:
If God didn't exist, it would be neccesary to invent him.
and so it seems someone did.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by MrHambre, posted 08-30-2004 10:38 PM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Hangdawg13, posted 09-01-2004 3:53 AM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 29 of 108 (138708)
09-01-2004 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by MrHambre
08-31-2004 9:17 AM


Re: Water the Poor
Since 9/11/01, my patience with this sort of touchy-feely nonsense has evaporated.
Why not until 9/11/01? Surely throughout history even in recent times there have been greater horrors and acts of irrational outrage. You never dealt with the gulags, the concentration camps, what China has done to the gentle people of Tibet?
And touchy feely is only one kind of nonsense. There is also the bitter vengeful nonsense of terrorist which brings them to commit acts like 9/11. I prefer people believing touchy-feely nonsense to believing that God wishes them to enact revenge on unbelievers, or at least postpone the satisfaction of their desire for vengence until a last judgement at some end time.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by MrHambre, posted 08-31-2004 9:17 AM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by MrHambre, posted 09-01-2004 8:24 AM lfen has replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 108 (138711)
09-01-2004 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
08-26-2004 9:42 AM


Phatboy asks:
quote:
In essence, what do any of you base your beliefs on?
I base mine on what I can either witness or reasonably conclude from known facts. I don't much like religion because it requires that I put aside rational thinking and believe in fairy tales. Why is it necessary that I believe virgin birth is possible in order to avoid an eternity in hell? Why must I participate in a ritual of drinking human blood and eating human flesh? Why must I believe in things like global floods or a sun that can stop in the sky in order to save myself from hellfire?
Most of what Christianity teaches doesn't make sense so I don't believe it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 08-26-2004 9:42 AM Phat has not replied

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