Nature and the fall of man

NO, nothing is being ignored. We account for these things differently. Let's just agree to disagree.

I don't see anything unreasonable about saying that God cannot make a round square. That's what your idea amounts to.

I'm getting sick of your ability to get to the heart of a matter so neatly.

Well, Faith, the ascetic life pays off in the end.

And your wit is perfectly nauseating too.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 06:48 PM

Actually, that is not what my idea amounts to.I am saying that the definitons of the majority of christians on what God is, and the definitons by the majority of Christians about what free will and the fall of man is make those concepts a contradiction. Calling
god Omincent and omnipotent, having him create man, and then having man fall from his own free will is saying man is a square peg.

Even an omniscient omnipotent God can't violate the logic of His own being and His own universe. That was Robin's point. I've been waiting for him to make the point again with his usual precision, but now I'm making it more klutzily instead. You claim God would have to make a man who both has free will and doesn't have free will, in other words to do something impossible, and if He didn't that means He's not omniscient or omnipotent according to you.

Thinking about this some more, I think I disagree after all. I don't think it was a matter of fine-tuning and careful balancing. Seems to me that would have been more like stacking the deck. I think God made man in His own image, with His own moral characteristics, a man who would naturally be oriented toward the God who made him, and yet with a completely free will that could act independently of God.P.S. You were gone a while. Nice to have you back.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 08:00 PM

Anyway, I appreciate the compliment very much.

And yet the Bible tells us we are all what God cannot be: Sinners.Also,
Gen:21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood...BTW: Where in the Bible does it say all this stuff you just wrote?It seems to say the opposite, that without God's help we could never be or do good.Psalms 14:3 All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.Matt 15:18-20 {Jesus speaking} "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."Sure doesn't seem like we are "naturally" oriented toward God.

Well, that is one of the problems of using just a line or two out of book to pick out a point. You are not quoting the line IN CONTEXT.The Psalms of David are the story of David, supposedly written by him when he was trying to escape Saul. It records his dark despair and his ultimate victory. To take a line out of context from his darkest hour is not really dealing with the Psalms in context for which it was written.It seems to me too many people use 'single line' quotes out of context to weave a theology. They support the first line taken out of context, with another single line or two, also taken out of context.

We aren't. The Fall, remember? Adam originally was, then he disobeyed -- that was the Fall -- and ever since the human race tends to sin.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 11:43 PM

Amen (taken out of context of course!)

Jar, this thread has to do with exactly what we were talking about earlier. How does your religion account for suffering?Here's an example: birth defects.Those who believe in the Fall have their own explanation.What's your religion's explanation?This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-10-2006 06:19 PM

Birth defects happen. Has nothing to do with religion.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion