atheism

Just to make sure I understand correctly, let me see if I can summarize an atheist evolutionist.Everything we see around us is the result of time and chance acting on matter. Nothing else exists unless it is the result of this process. Your beliefs have been built on reason and not some ancient book. Is this a fairly accurate picture?

for me my faith and belief is based on what ive experienced so far. also i personally dont think theres enough luck in the world to make evolution or the big bang theory happen and get to the point of humans where we are now. i dont think a conscience or a soul can be evolved, definetly changed but not in the physical aspect.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

More or less punisher, who is to say what is and isn't. With such a limited intelect we can only speculate.And Penguin I have a few things to say to you. Luck, is questionable term in that context. I would consider your faith a sustitute for luck in creationism, atleast the big bang is a pliable thoery. It can be accepted by just about anyone reagardless of religion. When really there is no "theory" of God. Just faith shared by every person on this planet on some level, who happens to have there own ideas and interpretations of who or what God is. Which brings me to the questions, where would you consider the Human race to be now? Who says a soul has to "Evolve"? And in the grand scale what have you experienced?I also must request that anyone try not to bring the supernatural into this. Most of it is just merely ludicrus myth and legend, while much more unrelated to this debate, and even more debatable. Really you can't look at paranormal events as a whole, but trying to classify them would just be absurd, are you aware that many beleive vampires to be arround during the time of Jesus (Even going as far as to claim Judas was one). This really could be an entirely new Topic, but can you try not to get into here? I really don't think aliens and bigfoot should be in such a debate as this.------------------
"There is no true reality. Things are only as real as your mind says it is. You have to find something to believe in, something worth fighting for, and pass it on to future generations." ~~David Hayter

You are getting to the root of my question which is this: How can an evolutionist believe in the validity of reason? How can time and chance acting on matter produce reason? If you see a chemical reaction, it doesn't occur to you to say that it is true or false, it just is. So, my Christian/creation beliefs are just a complex chemical reaction in my head. And your beliefs are simply a different chemical reaction. So why do you think my chemical reaction is false and yours is true. It appears that atheist evolutionists borrow reason from theism to argue their case. For those who do not believe in God, the only consistent position is nihlism. Basically, anything goes. If we are the process of chemical reactions, then the strongest survive and absolute standards of right and wrong do not exist. Right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder. So, your atheism must rest on an unsupported presuppostion, not on a claim to reason.

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Originally posted by Solid Snake:

I also must request that anyone try not to bring the supernatural into this. Most of it is just merely ludicrus myth and legend, while much more unrelated to this debate, and even more debatable.

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How exactly are we supposed to debate about Creation without being able to acknowledge God (supernatural)?By the way, I don't think God will appreciate what you said about His myths and legends.

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Originally posted by Punisher:
Basically, anything goes. If we are the process of chemical reactions, then the strongest survive and absolute standards of right and wrong do not exist. Right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder.

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I think you will find that this is EXACTLY what he believes....

Best not to go down the path of absolute "right and wrong", since christianity can't make the same claim either.1.)Today, we agree incest is bad. In the old testement, it was a pretty common thing. In fact, the then commandments make specific reference to not coveting thy neibhors wife, but says nothing about having the hots for your sister.
2.)THE INQUISITION! Ain't it great! The INQUISITION! need I repeat?
3.)um Crusades... nasty mess that.
4.)In the good ol' days of the old testement, the people were commanded to stone non-believers ( I am sooooo happy I didn't grow up in a village like that). Now, while we don't see eye to eye, I doubt you want to crush my skull with a big heavy rock ( I hope : )
I'm sure I could find more, but the point is, morality is greatly influenced by social norms, even christian morals.

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Originally posted by Punisher:
Just to make sure I understand correctly, let me see if I can summarize an atheist evolutionist.

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Everything we see around us is the result of time and chance acting on matter. Nothing else exists unless it is the result of this process. Your beliefs have been built on reason and not some ancient book. Is this a fairly accurate picture?

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Although simplistic this pretty much accords with our position....It is worth noting however that with large time frames and multiple events (i.e more than one set of reactions for abiogenesis etc) such probabilities quickly approach unity when considered for populations far larger than 1....

thereis no luck in creationism. it happened and we know it happened. everything was given to us by god. evolution requires a lot of evidence to be proven, every step in the chain must be shown. Christianity wont give any evidence until its the apocalypse.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
thereis no luck in creationism. it happened and we know it happened. everything was given to us by god. evolution requires a lot of evidence to be proven, every step in the chain must be shown. Christianity wont give any evidence until its the apocalypse.

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well then go home, KP, and call me when the fire starts pouring down from the heavens.until then, science stands.

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
thereis no luck in creationism. it happened and we know it happened. everything was given to us by god. evolution requires a lot of evidence to be proven, every step in the chain must be shown. Christianity wont give any evidence until its the apocalypse.

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well then go home, KP, and call me when the fire starts pouring down from the heavens.but let me say something. if god did create the earth 10000 years ago, and he did create a flood to wipe out all life on earth, then don't tell me that the only evidence will be when the apocolypse comes.come on, KP. if you are unwilling to give evolution and science something of meaning, go home and pray, go to church, and wait in antiicpation for evolution's fiery demise.until that day, science stands, and you're ignoring the facts.

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
theyre are still things that are unexplained and are paranormal. such as ghosts and ufos but lets not go down that road.

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Hoowee, you really do have a full allotment of "beliefs", don't you?UFO's? Unidentified Flying Objects? Sure, I think that there are objects which people see flying in the air that they cannot identify.Going any further than that in explanation without evidence is pure speculation, however.How can something be supernatural, yet be detectable and have effects in the natural world?If a phenamena has effects which are detectable in the natural world, then it is natural, not supernatural.So far, even after lots and lots of research, nobody has found any credible evidence of ghosts, or that we are being visited by alien spacecraft (which is what you really mean by UFO's, right?)The human imagination is a very powerful thing. We can convince ourselves of nearly anything if the emotional payoff is good enough.May I suggest a couple of books?Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World-Science as a Candle in the Dark", and Michael Shermer's "Why People Believe Wierd Things."The psychology of belief is a fascinating subject, but reading about it does require you to be able to step back from your own beliefs and examine them rather objectively. Some are not really able to do that.
Nevertheless, the books are excellent, compassionate, and may provide some insight.------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
thereis no luck in creationism. it happened and we know it happened. everything was given to us by god. evolution requires a lot of evidence to be proven, every step in the chain must be shown. Christianity wont give any evidence until its the apocalypse.

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It is the very esssence of science to require evidence in support of theories. Evolution, being a scientific theory, requires a body of evidence to support it. Creationism requires only faith. If the only conclusive proof for christianity is the apocalypse, then what happens if it doesn't occur? (And by this I take it you mean divine intervention. Nuking ourselves into extinction or death due to a global killer sized astral body striking the earth don't count (these are both well in the realm of natural explanation. : )
Also, you seem to be confusing probabilities and statistics with luck. For example, the statistics on winning the lottery for any given ticket is vanishingly small. (I forget the exact number, but it is one in millions, a remote "chance of winning). However, so many people buy lottery tickets, that statistically, someone will most likely win. So, even though "you" may not win (bad luck, along with millions of others who bought lotto tickets and lost), probability is that someone "will" , and thus be " the lucky one". As you see, luck isn't about probability, its about assessing a qualitive attribute to a quantitave statement.

Cobra once again you totally missunderstand what I'm trying to say. God is good and all, but I just don't see why you think he/she/it/whatever should be classified with Elves, the bermuda traingle, ESP, astral projection, bigfoot, aleins, telethapy, Psychokinesis, non-holy ghosts, werewolves, vampires, zombie, ect. Much of this may be relatable to the bible in its own way, but it doesn't exastly match all together. God may fall into some of these topics, but why would you want to classify him in the same category as these? To get into anything else would open the debate to anything Paranormal, Supernatural, or Occult. Trust me, you don't want to go there.Anyone interested in the works of body and spirit look up "Ko Hung" an ancient chinese alchemist who strongly bleived in the balance of body and spirit.In closing I have a riddle for you: Whats the difference between you and a Mallard with a cold?------------------
"There is no true reality. Things are only as real as your mind says it is. You have to find something to believe in, something worth fighting for, and pass it on to future generations." ~~David Hayter

I find it hard to beleive there is any universal law to right and wrong. Its basicly as open as someones idea of the perfect world. No one's idea is going to be the same. There may be common ideas among people, but it's highly unlikely that a group of people will all share common ideals. The only reason for simularities relates to society and stuff.