Free Will and Biblical Prophecy: Are They Mutually Exclusive?

Why is his observance from this perspective not a change?How can a timeline that includes an omnipoptent passive observer at point A be the same as one that does not include a passive observer at point A?Is their presence alone not a change? If not why not?Anyway. To get back to demonstrating the real problem with your argument.......STILE's POSITION For free-will to exist Carl’s choices must shape Carl’s timeline. Carl’s timeline must not shape Carl’s choices.You have explicitly stated that this is your position. Agreed?SCENARIO
Carl has a timeline.At point A on this timeline Carl chooses to manage the water treatment plant.
At point B on this timeline Carl chooses whether to have steak, lobster or both for dinner.
At point C Carl decides to retire and buy a boat.Point B = The present = Now
Therefore point A is in the past and point C is in the future.
Carl is at point B. Carl can see the past only.
Odin is at point B. Odin can see both Carl’s past and future.Carl chooses to eat both lobster and steak for dinner. He goes on to lead a happy life that includes enjoying his boat as a retiree.All OK so far?REVERSE TIME - SAME FUTURE?
Odin reverses time. We are back to point B again.Carl is about to choose to eat both lobster and steak for dinner when he is overcome with a random bout of paranoia. Why is his wife being so unusually damn nice? Why is she cooking him steak and lobster? Is she having an affair? Carl decides that he does not want dinner. He wants an argument with his wife.Carl’s life is irrevocably changed. Or is it?According to your version of free-will must reverse-time-Carl slavishly follow first-time-Carl’s timeline?Or can reverse-time-Carl shape his own timeline? Thus making Odin's previous future view redundent. Does reverse-time-Carl have free-will? Or not?Do reverse-time-Carl’s choices shape his timeline or does first-time-Carl’s timeline shape reverse-time-Carl’s choices? Does reverse-time-Carl have free-will? Or not?Does either Carl really have free-will at point B?How can Odin immutably know Carl's future choices if Carl has not made them yet? How can Odin see the future portion of Carl's timeline if this is shaped by choices Carl has never actually yet made?If to answer this question you need to change Odin's perspective from that stated in the scenario (i.e. located at point B looking into Carl's future) please specify what Odin's perspective needs to be and why it is that you need to change Odin's perspective to answer this question?What difference does Odin's perspective make?Hopefully you are starting to see the problem here?Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Odin can view Carl's timeline from any damn perspective he chooses. This is not in doubt. The question we need to consider is what efffect the perspective Odin chooses has on Carl's free-will.If Odin is truly timeless and eternal and passively observing then he will see Carl's whole lifeline complete and static from "outside" of time.There is no "before", "present" or "after". The timeline is complete if all of time is observed. Each point on the timeline is equally observable as any other. Like a piece of string on the floor. After? What does "after" mean if you are seeing the sum total of reality as a wriggly shaped static, whole line?If you look down at your piece of string which point is "before"? Which point is "after"? And which point is "now"?Your question makes no sense unless you confine yourself (and Odin) to the perspective within Carl's timeline. Rather than one "outside" of Carl's timeline.You need to be consistent between the two perspectives that you attribute Odin with. Or explain why they are the same.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Hi, Stile. This is because there simply is no "the future": there are actually three of them. This is the point that I'm trying to make: Odin would see them all, because they all exist.And, the ability to distinguish which of them would come to fruition would require a totally different type of insight.----- How can Carl "railroad" himself? He would have to never encounter a fork in the road at all: the option of getting off the railroad would have to never come up. If Carl has the ability, even as just a technicality, to change direction, then there are, by definition, at least two futures, both of which Odin would see.

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I'm Bluejay.Darwin loves you.

Hi Stile, Didn't you say that Carl's timeline was determined by his decisions?Then if Odin knows the decision Carl made in advance, how can Odin interfere with Carl's decision regardless of what he does with the information?He would have to personally interfere by making Carl do something against his will in order to remove free will.As far as Odin is concerned Carl has already made that decision.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

What Ahab will do has been foretold as an immutable truth.If Ahab chooses to do other than that foretold the immutable truth will be untrue.This is impossible.Therefore Ahab must do as foretold. He has no choice or free-will regarding this matter.This has nothing to do with God’s knowledge. This has everything to do with man’s knowledge.Which part of this are you failing to understand?

Jesus’s death has been foretold as an immutable truth.If either Jesus or those that kill him choose to do other than that foretold the immutable truth will be untrue.This is impossible.Therefore both Jesus and those who kill him must do as foretold. They have no choice or free-will regarding this matter.This has nothing to do with God’s knowledge. This has everything to do with man’s knowledge.Which part of this are you failing to understand?

Hi ICANTThe point of my post was that what you claim is incorrect. You wishfully said: He is not going to make you do something you don't choose to do.

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He will not force you to do anything. In particular you said that God will not force you to do anything, and my post pointed out that He forced Jonah to go to Nineveh against Jonah's wishes, Jonah even headed in the oppositie direction from Nineveh.Therefore, this is anither example of the Bible contradicting what a believer wishes that God was like, but He isn't, the God of the Bible is an evil, bloodthirsty, idiot. I know.The free will defence is just another in a very long series of very poor excuses for God's obvious hatred for the human race. Have some self-respect ICANT, it is just a story invented by the ancient imagination to explain the world around them, you really should not be taking the Bible seriously you know. That is so terribly sad. Edited by Brian, : formatting

In essence Stile's argument is circular.Carl's timeline is shaped by Carl's choices.
Odin knows Carl's future choices because he knows the shape of Carl's whole timeline.
Odin knows the shape of Carl's whole timeline because he knows Carl's future choices.This is obviously circular.The very definition of Carl's lifeline as being made up of Carl's choices requires that the future portion, made up of Carl's as yet un-made choices, cannot exist.I am trying to draw this circularity out of Stile himself but it is a complicated point, confused by terminology, differing perspectives and my own rather convulted attempts to get the point across.

ICANT it is you who is confused.An immutable prophecy regarding the future must come true.Free-will cannot be exerted such that the immutably true prophecy is made to be untrue. That would be a contradiction in terms.Thus an immutable prophecy must be obeyed by denying free-will.Explain to me how this is not so? God has immutably informed me by means of immutable prophecy that you are going to concede that you are wrong and confused in your next post.Are you going to obey this immutable prophecy?Or are you going to exert your free-will and disprove the immutability of God's prophecies?The choice is yours. Or is it? Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Hi Straggler, Please explain how Ahab knowing what was going to happen caused him to make the decision to go into battle.He did not believe a thing Micaiah said.In fact his mind was made up when he asked Jehoshaphat
would he join him in the battle.Jehoshaphat is the one that asked for the prophets in the first place.Jehoshaphat is the one that asked if there was any other prophets and Ahab mentioned Micaiah who hated him.So please explain how God made Ahab do anything. I think maybe you are having a problem here.Who said this is an immutable truth?You say but God said it was going to happen so it had to happen.But it did not have to happen at this particular time Ahab could have went home and lived and the people not lost the battle.Doesn't mean it would not happen yet in Ahab's future.Lets look at a case in point. God said Hezekiah was going to die. The difference in Hezekiah and Ahab was that Hezekiah believed God. Hezekiah asked for more time. God heard Hezekiah and complied. Isaiah did not get very far before God told him to go back and tell Hezekiah he had 15 more years.You say ah ha God lied.Did he? Lets see.The prophecy was for Hezekiah to set his house in order because he was going to die. He set his house in order as he states in verse 19, "Good is the word of the Lord which thou hast spoken." He accepted God's will as law.He set his kingly house in order by doing something for the city.He died.Prophecy fulfilled.Back to Ahab's prophecy.Here is the prophecy again. If you notice no details are given no particular battle is described Ahab is not mentioned nor is Jehoshaphat.The people were without a leader and scattered on the hills and went home.This prophecy was fulfilled many times in the children of Israel's history.So why did Ahab choose to fulfill it also.Brian is ripping me about Jonah.God said he was going to destroy Nineveh. Jonah wanted them destroyed so when God told him to go tell them to repent or He was going to destroy it Jonah rebelled and went the other way.But when Jonah did get there and preach the people of Nineveh repented and God did not destroy Nineveh.Prophecy failed.Not so fast, later God destroyed Nineveh.Prophecy fulfilled.You are supposed to follow the evidence in Bible study just like you do in any study.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

If Ahab had chosen not to go into battle would it have made the immutable prophecy wrong?If Ahab had chosen not to go into battle would it have made an immutable truth untrue?If Ahab had chosen not to go into battle would it have made a liar of a God that cannot lie?If none of these things are possible how can Ahab take any action that results in an immutable prophecy being false, an immutable truth being untrue or a God that cannot lie speak an untruth?If Ahab cannot take any action that contradicts the prophecy how can he be said to have free-will regarding this action?He cannot.Ahab may think he made the decision freely. Ahab may think he had choice. I don't know. But in the face of immutable prophecy this could be but an illusion because there was no choice available as demonstrated above.Which part of this do you not understand?Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Hi Straggler,Me think it is u who is cornfused. Why do you "believe" that free-will must be denied for an immutable prophecy to be fulfilled?The announcement of a Prophecy is the fore-telling of an event as it happens according to the decisions made at the time of the event.The problem is that the prophecy is made by someone seeing what decisions were made at the time of said event.The foreknowledge of what did happen in the future in no way controlled what happened at the time of the event.The event happened the same as it would had the prophecy not been told in advance of the event. I will continue when I get through ROFLMAO. OK I am back, almost busted a gut though.You a self proclaimed atheist who does not believe in God had a conversation with God.Why would I concede that I am wrong?Should I concede I am wrong because you think you are right?Just because God knows the decision you have made and will make concerning him and has determined where you are going to spend eternity has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to change your mind.
Just remember that whatever decision you make God knew that decision.Anyway concerning your immutable prophecy I choose to do as Ahab and not believe a word of it and press on.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

So much for the immutability of God's prophecies! That guy is a charlatan!!!!!Obviously we have no need to worry about the effect of immutable prophecies on free-will because God is apparently about as immutable as I am. I have seen the light. He has revealed himself to me. Oh ICANT it was wonderful. But he was still wrong..... Because God "immutably" foretold that you would.I won't be listening to him again though. Immutable? My arse!! Apparently God's prophecies are not immutable after all. Well he failed to foretell your decision accurately so I would be less confident in his fortune telling abilities if I were you.Between you and me I think God has had a couple of lucky guesses in the past (that whole Ahab thing) but has burdened himself with expectation by promoting this immutabilty stuff. He should play it safe and stick to more vague predictions in the future.

Hi Straggler, I am sorry that flash of light blinded you instead of opening your eyes. You made the statement "What Ahab will do has been foretold as an immutable truth."I asked, who said that was an immutable truth?Do you care to answer?I also asked you, So why did Ahab choose to fulfill it also?Do you care to answer?Now Ahab's prophecy was general.Hezekiah's was specific. But was delayed. Because he asked.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Brian, I did not say God would not make ICANT do anything. God can do whatever He wants with ICANT I put that in His keeping when I was 9 years and 11 months old.I said God will not make you, Modulous do anything against your will as I was talking to Modulous.He will not make Brian believe in Him or do anything he does not want to do either.He will allow Brian to believe in Him if Brian wants to believe.But when it comes to ICANT and any other born again child of God we are His and we obey or suffer loss. No you don't have a clue. I do have self respect.I do get flare ups of pride but when I do God reminds me I am His.As far as taking the Bible too seriously I don't have to have the Bible as I have the Holy Spirit to lead me. Don't feel sad for me.Those consequences has made me the man I am today.And I wouldn't take nothing for my journey now.I'm sorry Brian but you just can't understand. I am sure there are some that can those are my brothers.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."