PROOF OF GOD

Well, PI is involved in a circle. And this is sounding like circular reasoning to me. The relationships have to be determined independantly. If the height derived is derived because that height supplies the right relationship then the relationship can not be used to support the height detemination.As you noted, it appears that a highly accurate measurement of something damaged and eroded isn't very meaningful in any case.

So far the only measurements that I've seen referenced here that have any details to evaluate them are Petrie's.We can produce our own calculations using those dimensions if we all agree they are the best we have.from: Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh: Ch. 6, Outside of Great PyramidSIDE Baseline Socket CoreN 9069.4 9129.8 9002.3
E 9067.4 9130.8 8999.4
S 9069.5 9123.9 9001.7
W 9068.6 9119.2 9002.5These measurements are in british inches.I am told, but need to confirm, that the pyramidology sites use the sockets as a the points to measure the pyramid sides. The link given describes in great detail Petrie's methods for arriving at these. He gives an error of 0.6 inch on these measurments.I believe the pyramidology sites give:The Angle of the GP is taken as 51 deg 50 min 40 sec or 51.8333 degreesThe capstone height is given by WT’s source as 364.0101 PIAre these values all acceptable? Do we have any others?Willowtree, this is your topic. Do you have any problem with these? Do you have Rutherford's measurements?(btw WT, it is getting to be the couple of days you needed for the LLM -- actually it's been weeks since you were given the calculations but who's counting. )

Hi WillowTree!I think the points being raised about the legitimacy of the Pyramid Inch and the Sacred Cubit are valid, as are the questions about the LLM, and you haven't replied to my Message 644 of three days ago. It looks like you have a lot on your plate, so let me briefly summarize that message so you have something shorter to reply to.Petrie says: He actually found the casing stones below pavement level by digging: So Petrie formed a hypthesis about the purpose of the sockets^*, then he found evidence supporting that hypothesis in the form of actual casing stones below pavement level.You need some evidence for Rutherford's claim that the socket stones were actually for a different pyramid that was never built. Christian numerological arguments like your rectification factor are not evidence.If for the sake of discussion we assume the socket stones *do* represent a different pyramid design, then the most important of the remaining questions is how you know the proportions of a pyramid not built? The socket stones are not placed in a true square, and using them yields a slightly awkward pyramid. The angles of the sides are not known. The dimensions of the capstone are not known. The height is not known.A proof of God requires unequivocal evidence.--Percy * Fix typo. --PercyThis message has been edited by Percy, 07-29-2004 11:22 AM

I think you meant "about the purpose of the sockets,"

I am aware of all the outstanding posts.I will not be able to respond until tommorrow.

Thank you WT. That type of courtesy is appreciated and not as common here as would be nice.

In addition to WT's daily and social activities, it should be noted that s/he has also engaged in a formal debate regarding the pyramid claims in another forum. Thus, a little patience may be required for those (including myself) awaiting replies here.

I started at page 1 to review just how this post started and how it has progressed. My interest in the Great Pyramid (GP) is related to how its dimensions are used to preserve knowledge.Over a period of years, I have examined the values provided by Rutherford, Petrie and Smyth for various Great Pyramid dimensions. Petrie and Smyth had some really bad conditions in some areas they surveyed and were not very thorough, but the surveyor Rutherford hired was able to work in very good conditions. To satisfy his premise, Rutherford needed to fill in more detail than was provided by Smyth and Petrie. Rutherford filled in many missing dimensions, but Rutherford "qualified" his values in a way the other two surveyors did not.In Appendix F of Lemesurier's book, "The Great Pyramid Decoded", it states,

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One of the procedures used in the measurement of the Pyramid involves the averaging of a large number of different measurements of the same feature. The resulting average figure tends, not unnaturally, to ignore preconceived notions of what a 'neat' answer should be, and often displays many digits to the right of the decimal point. At this juncture the temptation is great to round the figures up or down. Yet a moment's thought reveals the potential danger of such a policy --- for how is the researcher to know that he is not moving away from the correct figure? Consequently the resulting figures need initially to be accepted as they stand.

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As a result, Rutherford presented his values with 3 to 6 decimal places, with the bulk being 4, 5 and 6 places. The devil is in the details, as it is conceivable that Rutherford's surveyor could have used a micrometer device, as an extension, on many of his measurements. The methodology used in the averaging is not stated nor the type of instruments used to obtain particular values. If the many decimals are the result of mathematical averaging rather than instrument precision, the stated "accuracies" are invalid, basically stated by Percy earlier.It appears Rutherford's surveyor did not remeasure the exterior dimensions, also from Appendix F,

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Rutherford's own figures for the Pyramid as designed are, almost without exception, well within the stated tolerances of the most authoritative surveys (on which, indeed, they are largely based) and are thus, by defintion, necessarily as valid as any other figures which conform to those tolerances.

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Unfortunately, there is no clarification as to what Rutherford meant by "as designed".An earlier statement made by WT, Msg 428 pg 29, suggests preconceived attitudes about human achievement that are not supported by fact.

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It is axiomatic - ancient humans did not possesss advanced mathematical and geometrical and astronomical knowledge comparable to present day. To say they did defies the obvious, common sense, and the evidence.

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I need only point out the Mayan calendar as one example that identifies highly advanced mathematical and astronomical knowlege, far exceeding anything the so-called Western science had 200 years ago.Hugh Harleston identified the "hunab" as the basic Mayan unit of measure and the Americanists that ridiculed Harleston couldn't conceive the "primitive" Mayans had a sophisticated metrology system. Harleston added a few more discoveries that were derided by the Americanists, but which actually supported the sophisticated astronomical knowledge required to produce the Mayan calendar.This gets into another area this post has covered, just what unit of measure (metrology system) is most appropriate to discuss GP dimensions. I really doesn't matter whether one uses Metric, British or pyr.inches to represent physical sizes. What is important, as Harleston found with the hunab, certain dimensions present a specific numerical meaning only in the builders basic unit(s).I would like to add this, one should not equate the knowledge of the average ancient Egyptian to what was known by those that had been educated in "The House of the Pharaoh". It is no different today than 3 to 5 thousand years ago, there is a wide divide between what is known by the average citizen as compared to those educated in "The Halls of Scientific Academia".

And there is no clarification of what measurements Rutherford chose and why he did. Petrie is still the only clearly spelled out ones I have had access to. Though pictures would be nice too. There is no reason to think that the measurements can be meaningfully made to this degree of precision. There are, of course, accepted ways to arrive at a "correct" figure in this type of circumstance. Averageing is certainly one of them as is giving the value to the appropriate precision and with an error range attached.

The bible infers that before the biblical deluge, there were giants in them days, if the bible is taken literally men were giants in them days, lived much longer, it seems according to this verse from within the Second book of Adam and Eve, that Seth requested a roof be built over their altar to God, The Great Pyramid of Giza might well be the roof built by Seths decendants documented in The Second Book of Adam and Eve. God accepted their offering for asking for a blessing from God. It must of been quite a roof, interestingly Seth was quite well aware of the "Great" 5 1/2 (God days)(5,500 years) till the "Savior" [the Word] would be sent, which we all know was fullfilled when a virgin conceived and beared the body for the Word {Emmanuel, the savior [God come in the flesh], though its quite interesting that the Great Pryamid of Giza could well be a holy place, given the biblical flood waters evidences of the erosion of the Sphinx, makes one wonder if under the flood sediments (hydroplate theory)(genesis talking of the erupting fountains of the deep), if there is an opening under this pyramid (pre-flood) where Seth went to burn his offering unto God praying to God to accept his prayer for his children, etc... An altar under the pyramid, would it not answer any vent holes supporting the burning of offerings coming from the center of the pryamid, the entrance to this altar, buried by the sediments of the biblical flood preserving not just this entrance but all the fossils buried within the sediment of the entire earth, etc... For the Egyptians to of built the pyramid based off the great 5 1/2 days within the books of Adam and Eve, they would of had to come unto the scene in historical records over 5,848 years ago, to discredit the biblical flood, Likely Egyptian historical record agree they came onto the scene after the flood occurred, less than 6,000 years, given by the books of Adam and Eve, it makes from Adam to present approximately 7,500 years, making the The Great Giza Pyramid built approximately 6,570-6,458 years ago after Adam had already died, and before Seth died, Seth lived to be 912 years, and Adam lived to be 930 years, etc...Forgotten Books of Eden: Second Book of Adam and EveChapter XII.Seth's family affairs. His death. The headship of Enos. How the outcast branch of Adam's family fared.THEN Seth, the just, called his son Enos, and Cainan, son of Enos, and Mahalaleel, son of Cainan, and said unto them:-2 "As my end is near, I wish to build a roof over the altar on which gifts are offered."3 They hearkened to his commandment and went out, all of them, both old and young, and worked hard at it, and built a beautiful roof over the altar.4 And Seth's thought, in so doing, was that a blessing should come upon his children on the mountain; and that he should present an offering for them before his death.5 Then when the building of the roof was completed, he commanded them to make offerings. They worked diligently at these, and brought them to Seth their father who took them and offered them upon the altar; and prayed God to accept their offerings, to have mercy on the souls of his children, and to keep them from the hand of Satan.6 And God accepted his offering, and sent His blessing upon him and upon his children. And then God made a promise to Seth, saying, "At the end of the great five days and a half, concerning which I have made a promise to thee and to thy father, I will send My Word and save thee and thy seed."P.S. Concerning the offerings burned by Seth just before his death, under the roof he requested built, quite possibly (The Pyramid of Giza)(we all know the Egyptians would like to take credit for the Great Giza Pryamid) Interestingly, God accepted the offerings burned by Seth before his death and promised to Seth too, to send his Word at the end of the "Great" 5 1/2 days (5,500 years), to send "The Word" to save Adam and Seth and Seths decendants, kind of interesting that Cains decendants all perished in the biblical deluge, only Noah was righteous in Gods eyes(decendant of Seth), and given Adam was born within the 6th God day, but because he died within one God Day, this means Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahlaleel, and Jared all were born in the 6th God day, before the Creation week was over, 7,000 years, (7 great days) Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahlaleel, Jared, all died within the seventh God day, (making the Giza Pyramid around 7,000 years old), Enoch would of died within the seventh God day but he was translated, and Metuselah apparently by the Math died in the year of the biblical deluge, and Lamech who begat Noah died 5 years before the flood, but by the Math 1,656 years expired from Adams birth till the biblical flood (making the flood happen 5,848 years ago), but the 5 1/2 days are based on God days so the from the point in time the seventh God day expired, starting a new timetable, you have 4,000 years from the end of the seventh God day till Christs birth to satisfy the 5 1/2 days from Adam, and interestingly this all supports the 6,000 years "after" the creation week event and fits quite well within the time table for the biblical flood, etc... It is quite interesting that the roof that Seth built (the pyramid of Giza), offering a pleasing offering on the altar to God, that God accepted and renewed his promise to send our savior, the Word in the flesh, and in Revelation it says that he is alive forevermore, he that was dead is alive forevermore (Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the life) he holds the keys of death and of hell. kjv revelation 1:18. When the apostles beheld our Savior they thought he was a spirit, and his response was give him some meat to eat, and does a spirit eat food, thus the resurrection relates to our Lord having a glorified body, the root of David, and of the bright and morning star. kjv revelation 22:16. In the Christian resurrection, we will be like angels, which is what the Promise to Adam, and Seth and their seed was all about, the Word our Savior so even though we die, we will be resurrected in the flesh, to be like angels, where the corruptible will put on incorruption, and the basis of the Christian faith, the Word becoming flesh, to save our immortal souls, if it all ended at the grave, what would be the reason to send a savior, to release the captives in Abrahams bosom, etc...kjv Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.kjv Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.kjv Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.kjv 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.There is a possiblility that the Pryamid of Giza being the middle of the earth is where Adams body rests, for Adam said he was to be buried in the middle of the earth, in the second book of Adam and Eve, did not Joesph return to egypt with the babe Jesus warned by an angel, so did not Jesus come out of Eygpt, it seems to me to be a part of prophecy, making one wonder about the real reasonings of the pryamid, if its the roof Seth built 6,570-6,458 years ago, or if it was built after the flood by Noahs Son Shem, 5,848 years ago.Forgotten Books of Eden: Second Book of Adam and EveChapter VIII.Adam's remarkable last words. He predicts the Flood. He exhorts his offspring to good.
He reveals certain mysteries of life.11 "But, 0 my son, let those whom it will leave out from among your children at that time, take my body with them out of this cave; and when they have taken it with them, let the oldest among them command his children to lay my body in a ship until the flood has been assuaged, and they come out of the ship.12 Then they shall take my body and lay it in the middle of the earth, shortly after they have been saved from the waters of the flood.13 "For the place where my body shall be laid, is the middle of the earth; God shall come from thence and shall save all our kindred.Chapter XXI.Jared dies in sorrow for his sons who had gone astray. A prediction of the Flood.8 "And unto him of you who shall be left, 0 my sons, shall the Word of God come, and when he goes out of this land he shall take with him the body of our father Adam, and shall lay it in the middle of the earth, the place in which salvation shall be wrought."9 Then Noah said unto him, "Who is he of us that shall be left?"10 And Jared answered, "Thou art he that shall be left. And thou shalt take the body of our father Adam from the cave, and place it with thee in the ark when the flood comes.11 "And thy son Shem, who shall come out of thy loins, he it is who shall lay the body of our father Adam in the middle of the earth, in the place whence salvation shall come."This message has been edited by whatever, 07-30-2004 04:54 PMThis message has been edited by whatever, 07-31-2004 10:45 PM

It's taken a while to get a clear picture, but concerning just the proportions of the Great Pyramid, I think that WillowTree claims that the Great Pyramid complex is proof of the existence of God because:

1. There was an orginal design of the Great Pyramid that was never actually built. Its proportions were identical to the original proportions of the existing pyramid, its corners lay on the socket stones, and its height to the capstone platform was 5449 inches, the figure one gets if one adds the numbers corresponding to the Hebrew letters in Isaiah 19:19-20.
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2. The difference in heights between the actual capstone platform and that of the hypothetical original design is equal to a rectification factor that is a reference to Christ.

There are a number of other claims regarding the uniqueness of the Great Pyramid's location that haven't as yet been supported with any quantifiable evidence, though the Longest Land Meridian (LLM) claim appears to have been solidly refuted with numbers. There's no evidence the ancient Egyptians used the Pyramid Inch or the Sacred Cubit, and numerology has no validity that has ever been demonstrated.--PercyThis message has been edited by Percy, 07-30-2004 07:58 AM

My previous post that mentioned numerical relationships, refers to mathematical and/or physical relationships, not numerology.

What you actually said was: Sounds like numerology to me. Perhaps you can give an example of what you mean.--Percy

I have laboriously argued that God designed the GP and Egyptians did not build it.Although there is abundant evidence that the Egyptians did use the inch.It doesn't matter - I never argued any claim that your assertion jeopardizes. No shit !This is why I say Egyptologists are full of dog[shit]ma.This is why I argue Divinity. All the evidence combined = the God of Isaiah as Architect. This is why we have sources.They preclude opinions like yours, devoid of any facts or sources from controlling what is true.Sidelined:Show me any evidence for your opinion in the blue box.My evidence says you could not be anymore wrong.Where did the British get their inch ?Do you even know the origin of the word "British" ? This is your subjective opinion - do you have a source ?My sources disagree.In 2141 BC Alpha Draconis WAS the pole star/North star.This is a fact established by my sources. If you stood at the very bottom of the descending passage, in 2141 BC the light from that star would shine all the way down.This means the GP builders knew how to align a long shaft to true north, and they knew which star was the pole star/North star.Ancient egyptians did not have this modern knowledge.I am amused how the scientific worldview of this generation, who rants about allegiance to empirical evidence, suddenly, by faith, and capriciously, has no problem believing ancient human beings knew this.Scientific worldview are not committed to facts "wherever they lead".They are committed to naturalist/evolutionary conclusions regardless of the voluminous contradictory evidence.

Lindum:I have a headache.I will reply tomorrow.