Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is Syamsu a creationist or an evolutionist?
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 1 of 192 (56203)
09-18-2003 1:59 AM


As much as I have come to dislike the existence of the "Free For All" forum, this concerns Syamsu, so here it is.
I haven't made any atempt to follow, in any detail, any of the lengthy Syamsu related topics, but...
What is Syamsu's position in the Creationism/Evolution debate? Is he a creationist, or is he an evolutionist who just find objection to (whatever he defines as) "Darwinism" as being some sort of evil agenda?
Moose
[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 09-18-2003]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2003 3:55 AM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2003 4:08 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2 of 192 (56214)
09-18-2003 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
09-18-2003 1:59 AM


I don't know and I don't think that it matters. He's spent enough time implicitly arguing for racism that he might be a crypto-racist hoping that he can persuade evolutionists to agree with his secret views.
(Or not so secret views - he did try arguing that the Bosnian Muslims were "genetically deformed" at one point. After running from that discussion for the next two years he tried to pretend that he never said it - running away whenever the evidence was produced - before finally claiming that he didn't really mean it and that he was taking some form of "devil's advocate" position. Given that it took two years to say that - instead of stating it when he gave up the original discussion - and that he seems to have no sensible reason for saying it in the first place it's at least possible that he really meant it. If he wasn;t a loon I'd have said it was almost certain).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-18-2003 1:59 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 3 of 192 (56215)
09-18-2003 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
09-18-2003 1:59 AM


He often labels himself a creationists and claims that his assertions are consistent with creationists ideology. However, what the ideology he is referring to is as obscure as the logic in the rest of his posts.
His main points seem to be that 1. that there is no variation of any significance in populations 2. to claim there is and to be so bold as to compare relative reproductive success among variants is dangerous 3. because it leads to social darwinisms which..4. Darwinism equals nazism
His arguments are naive and misguided but I would not say one could lump him in with what other creationists typically say.
Very interesting that he apparently called Bosnian muslims genetically deformed given his persistence in condeming the supposed judgementalism he accuses all scientists of.
[This message has been edited by Mammuthus, 09-18-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-18-2003 1:59 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Syamsu, posted 09-18-2003 10:40 AM Mammuthus has replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 4 of 192 (56228)
09-18-2003 6:20 AM


I still haven't quite figured this one out. I have asked him directly but he hasn't deigned to reply. Certainly some of his topic titles would suggest so, i.e. 'cut variation= cut racism and atheism', but he seems quite happy to bring up the connection of creationist ideas of immuntability of species as a rationale for racism as well.
Perhaps it is simply that his approach is so elliptical that it is impossible to tell what direction he is coming from, he often says that it is noe evolution he is talking about but natural selection and the Darwinian language of 'common judgementalism'.

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 5 of 192 (56253)
09-18-2003 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mammuthus
09-18-2003 4:08 AM


The genetically deformed Muslims is something biology professor Plavsic talked about, as a member of the Serbian-Bosnian presidential commitee during the war in Bosnia. Plavsic is now in prison for her warcrimes. This was then reconstrued by the talk.origins mob as if I had alleged it. (because they couldn't deal with neutrality as an ideal in science, in stead of as a fact)
Do you consider yourself misled by PaulK for omitting this little piece of information about Plavsic?
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2003 4:08 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2003 10:51 AM Syamsu has replied
 Message 9 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2003 11:39 AM Syamsu has not replied
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2003 11:40 AM Syamsu has replied

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 6 of 192 (56255)
09-18-2003 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Syamsu
09-18-2003 10:40 AM


quote:
Do you consider yourself misled by PaulK for omitting this little piece of information about Plavsic?
I have what PaulK asserted and what you have asserted with neither one of you posting a link to the original discussion.... so for all I know you could be the one attempting to mislead me...see why posting the evidence for your assertions is important? Your lack of knowlege of biology and wildly accusatory statements regarding others, not to mention your debate tactics on this site would lead me to believe PaulK over you but you can clear the matter up buy posting the evidence in your favor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Syamsu, posted 09-18-2003 10:40 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Syamsu, posted 09-18-2003 11:05 AM Mammuthus has replied

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 7 of 192 (56257)
09-18-2003 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Mammuthus
09-18-2003 10:51 AM


I'm not asking you who you believe, I'm just asking you if you consider yourself misled by PaulK for omitting the information about Plavsic.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2003 10:51 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2003 11:21 AM Syamsu has replied

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 8 of 192 (56259)
09-18-2003 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Syamsu
09-18-2003 11:05 AM


paulK writes:
quote:
he did try arguing that the Bosnian Muslims were "genetically deformed" at one point. After running from that discussion for the next two years he tried to pretend that he never said it - running away whenever the evidence was produced - before finally claiming that he didn't really mean it and that he was taking some form of "devil's advocate" position.
Why is this misleading? He accuses YOU of advocating that Bosnian Muslims are genetically deformed. You have not denied this nor have you provided evidence that this is something you disagree with, nor have you provided a link to the original discussion. That he does not mention another person who has stated something similar (though you have not provided evidence that this was said by Plavsic either) is irrelevant to establishing whether or not YOU stated that Bosnian Muslims are genetically deformed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Syamsu, posted 09-18-2003 11:05 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Syamsu, posted 09-18-2003 11:45 AM Mammuthus has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 9 of 192 (56260)
09-18-2003 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Syamsu
09-18-2003 10:40 AM


[Sorry - duplicate post]
[This message has been edited by PaulK, 09-18-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Syamsu, posted 09-18-2003 10:40 AM Syamsu has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 10 of 192 (56261)
09-18-2003 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Syamsu
09-18-2003 10:40 AM


Just a couple of questions.
Did you or did you not assert that Plavsic's assertions were "genuine science" ?
newsgroup message 1
A false claim which directly supports Plavsic - Plavsic had NO scientific evidence of any "genetic deformity". Even the webpage you used as your source disagreed with you there!
Did you or did you not assert that "She saw the deformities in the Muslim population herself" ? newsgroup message 2
Another false claim - since there were no genetic deformities to see.
And in newsgroup message 3
do we not see you, personally, state that "History says that some genetically deformed Serbs embraced Islam." A statement which is outright false - HISTORY maks no such claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Syamsu, posted 09-18-2003 10:40 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2003 11:45 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 15 by Syamsu, posted 09-18-2003 12:04 PM PaulK has not replied

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 11 of 192 (56262)
09-18-2003 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Mammuthus
09-18-2003 11:21 AM


I would say that the fact that you find that information essentially irrellevant shows you to be corrupt in handling evidence.
Who here can't immediately recognize the resentment ridden post of PaulK for what it is?, a screwy attempt at characterassassination.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2003 11:21 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2003 11:56 AM Syamsu has replied

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 12 of 192 (56263)
09-18-2003 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by PaulK
09-18-2003 11:40 AM


and it gets better
quote:
What do you mean by that? History says that some genetically deformed
Serbs embraced Islam.
>>This biology professor said there was.
>
>Why are you trusting her?
Because she is a professor in this field, and carries herself nicely.
I'm currently too busy with the laundry to go and verify her findings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2003 11:40 AM PaulK has not replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 13 of 192 (56264)
09-18-2003 11:50 AM


I think I would like to keep this topic short, and get a clear as possible answer to the topic title question.
Syamsu - Could you make a statement on the question of are you a creationist or an evolutionist?
Moose

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Syamsu, posted 09-18-2003 12:09 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 14 of 192 (56265)
09-18-2003 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Syamsu
09-18-2003 11:45 AM


I would say PaulK's post and the links therin with your own words shows that you are a liar....you assasinated your own character

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Syamsu, posted 09-18-2003 11:45 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Syamsu, posted 09-18-2003 12:06 PM Mammuthus has replied

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 15 of 192 (56269)
09-18-2003 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by PaulK
09-18-2003 11:40 AM


It's just as pathetic an accusation now as it was then. You have no case except in your own twisted mind. Obviously, you are just very upset about my opinion about the relationship between Darwinism and Social Darwinism. (an opinion which you will now misconstrue into something bizarre I'm sure). Very sad.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2003 11:40 AM PaulK has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024