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IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 61 of 68 (65542)
11-10-2003 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by crashfrog
11-08-2003 10:02 AM


To be honest, I don't think I can begin to answer any of your questions... I just don't know. I was always lead to believe that this was the case. I noticed evidence in real life that suggested that it was true, therefore did not question its validity, etc.
Hey, does that sound familiar?
I thought that the stress that childbirth puts on women's bodies leads them to being, in general, better able to recover from illness or injury. Also they would be able to handle more intense levels of pain for the same reason. It makes some kind of sense - especially when you think about it from the view of evolution - but it's still unsupported assertation really. Anyway, I'm no biologist, so I'm more than prepared to be enlightened.
The Rock Hound

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 Message 56 by crashfrog, posted 11-08-2003 10:02 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by nator, posted 11-10-2003 9:41 AM IrishRockhound has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 62 of 68 (65551)
11-10-2003 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by IrishRockhound
11-10-2003 8:57 AM


I did a bit of web searching and it seems as though the tests do show that women find external stimuli painful sooner than when the males report it as painful.
However, this seems to be only external stimuli; that applied to the skin, rather than internal things like cramps, stomach pain or spasm of some muscles or something.
In the long run, it's one's reaction to pain and how fast one complains or changes behavior as a result of the pain that matters.
Anectodally, in my own life, it's the men who tend to be, uh, whiny about their boo boos and the women tend to put up and shut up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-10-2003 8:57 AM IrishRockhound has replied

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 Message 63 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-10-2003 10:08 AM nator has not replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 63 of 68 (65557)
11-10-2003 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by nator
11-10-2003 9:41 AM


I'll second that. My brother and my mother both suffer from migraines, but my mum can just shake them off whereas my brother is usually laid up for a few days.

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 Message 64 by NosyNed, posted 11-10-2003 10:41 AM IrishRockhound has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 64 of 68 (65562)
11-10-2003 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by IrishRockhound
11-10-2003 10:08 AM


You seem to be using anecdotal reports as some sort of evidence. In addition there is no way of determining the pain input in the two cases. I don't think this means much one way or the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-10-2003 10:08 AM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by nator, posted 11-10-2003 1:56 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 66 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-10-2003 2:05 PM NosyNed has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 65 of 68 (65581)
11-10-2003 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by NosyNed
11-10-2003 10:41 AM


Thought this was interesting:
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/8564.html
Who's Really Hurting?
by Susanna Smith
Women have been labeled the fairer sex, the weaker sex, the emotionally driven and irrational sex. Over the past century successive waves of women?s rights movements have tempered these stereotypes, offering women more freedoms and opportunities. But in many ways Western society has become so conscious of being politically correct and asexual in preference that we run the risk of failing to recognize the important differences in the sexes.
Men and women are not the same. They are anatomically distinct, biologically different; and they have diverse styles of thinking and communicating. In a recent literature review, "The Girl Who Cried Pain: A Bias Against Women in the Treatment of Pain," Dianne E. Hoffman and Anita J. Tarzian highlight one significant difference in the sexes by suggesting that men and women feel and deal with pain differently. Furthermore, this study suggests that "women are more likely than men to be undertreated or inappropriately diagnosed and treated for their pain"[1].
Pain is a subjective phenomenon that cannot be readily quantified; therefore physicians rely largely on patients? self-reporting to determine the severity of their pain. Only in the past decade has the medical research field recognized that women and men may experience illness and pain differently. In fact recent clinical pain studies found women reported more severe and frequent pain and pain of longer duration than men. Other studies suggest that women may have a varying level of pain tolerance, reflecting changes in hormone levels during their menstrual cycles.
Besides hormonal differences, structural differences between the central nervous systems and brains of men and women may affect how members of that sex feel pain. One structural difference this review cites is tissue thickness and sensory receptor density in women that may make their skin more sensitive to pain than men?s. Although the disparities between men?s and women?s responses to pain are well documented, it is unclear whether these differences are rooted in biology or in coping strategies and pain expression, or in both.
Physiological influences and the attribution of meaning to pain may also play a part in sex-related experience and expression of pain. Studies have found that women are more likely to report and seek treatment for pain. One reason for this could be that women more frequently experience pain in the absence of illness, eg, in childbirth and menstruation. Therefore they seek treatment for pain as a means of sorting "normal biological pain . . . from potentially pathological pain, whereas men do not need to go through this sorting process"[1 ]. Despite higher incidence of pain reports, and their increased susceptibility to pain, women are systematically treated less aggressively than men for their pain. Women?s pain complaints are often written off as emotional responses, which explains the finding that women are prescribed psychotropics more often in pain treatment whereas men are given analgesics.
The undertreatment of pain in women may also be due to the widely held but false notion that women have higher pain tolerance than men. The fact that women do undergo normal biological processes that are painful may have given rise to this generalization. Studies have also found that women have more pain coping mechanisms, such as seeking social support, relaxation, or distraction whereas men more often deny they are in pain or deal with pain through tension reducing behaviors such as consuming alcohol. But women?s ability to deal with pain better should not be translated into the idea that they experience less pain when many studies point to the opposite conclusion.
Social mores also influence the way men and women report pain. In most Western societies it is more culturally acceptable for women to report pain than for men to do so; the social norm for men encourages a stoic response. One study reported that the sex of the inquiring researcher affected the way male participants responded in a laboratory setting. Although men report pain less frequently, it seems they are taken more seriously when they do seek pain treatment; women, who report pain more frequently, are often described as anxious.
Women?s ability and readiness to verbalize their feelings and describe their pain may lead physicians to discredit the severity of their pain. One report suggested that women?s style of communication may not fit neatly into the traditional format of the physician interview, leaving women in chronic pain vulnerable and "rebuffed by physicians in their attempts to express the multiple ways in which their pain affects the quality of their lives and their ability to function"[1].
Hoffman and Tarzian go on to make an argument for just treatment in pain management, suggesting that a more equitable approach would be "sex-specific, gender-sensitive pain management treatments," as an acknowledgement of men and women?s different pain treatment needs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by NosyNed, posted 11-10-2003 10:41 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 66 of 68 (65582)
11-10-2003 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by NosyNed
11-10-2003 10:41 AM


We're not holding this up as evidence, Ned. It's just an anecdote - I said as much that it was unsupported.
Methinks you might be getting too used to creationists using anecdotes as evidence...
The Rock Hound

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by NosyNed, posted 11-10-2003 10:41 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by NosyNed, posted 11-10-2003 4:19 PM IrishRockhound has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 67 of 68 (65600)
11-10-2003 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by IrishRockhound
11-10-2003 2:05 PM


Sorry, I guess I wouldn't want you setting a bad example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-10-2003 2:05 PM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-10-2003 5:17 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 68 of 68 (65607)
11-10-2003 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by NosyNed
11-10-2003 4:19 PM


Oh of course, far be it for me or schraf to fall into such a terrible habit... I will watch what I post from now on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by NosyNed, posted 11-10-2003 4:19 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
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