The Reagan Legacy

That was point #6 in the post I made directly before the one you replied to.Let me just say that I actually share your pain. It is one of the many reasons I began wearing a "reagan hates me" t-shirt in college, and why I had to continue wearing cheap t-shirts long after college.Not sure if you got hit with the triple whammy of having your education funding cut, as education costs were tripled, and then graduated just in time for the economic depression resulting from his policies, but even 2 out of 3 had to be bad. I got the trifecta.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Thanks for that link. I found Koop and Elders' contributions quite interesting.Unfortunately Satcher and Frist came along to put things back into another context. Reading their statements I get the feeling we are essentially right back in 1981-1986 era.I couldn't believe Satcher tried to derail HIV as the issue he should be discussing and bring in abortion. Oh man and what were his efforts at prevention? Going to churches and gospel singers to reach out to the ostracized communities? Where the hell is this guy's head?I can't wait till we get someone as plain spoken or as crafty as Elders or Koop back in charge of the "Surgical Army".

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Koop will always have a special place in my heart for being the first person in government to stand up and say, "Jesus people, use a freakin' condom, all right?"

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

Did he actually say those words at some point, or are you just saying he forced them to confront the issue of condom use? If he said those words I'd really have to hang a poster of that guy on my wall.As it is I loved the part of his statement where he said members of the administration were uncomfortable discussing condom use in front of Mrs. Dole, then he said "this was obviously in the pre-viagra days."It was like reading bizzaro-Koop when Satcher started speaking. I couldn't believe his concern was that we make sure we don't offend anyone with science, thus they have to have meetings with ultra-conservatives and ultra-liberals to understand how to correctly apply science. The facts are the facts ya idiot!

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

No, no, he just took a stand. If he'd actually used those words, I wouldn't be on this forum. I'd be way to busy staking out his house and yelling "I LOVE YOU, KOOP!" Oy... my favorite of these was a couple years back, when the surgeon general (whose name escapes me) released a study stating that there was no evidence whatsoever to suggest that abstinence education accomplished anything at all, and no evidence whatsoever to suggest that a gay person could be turned straight, and the White House started in with the song and dance about how "this is not the kind of message we want to be sending."Up next, Bush makes clear that he does not want to send the message that the sky is blue.

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

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That was point #6 in the post I made directly before the one you replied to.

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Yeah, I saw that just after I posted my message.I was in such a hurry to post that I didn't read ahead.

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Let me just say that I actually share your pain. It is one of the many reasons I began wearing a "reagan hates me" t-shirt in college, and why I had to continue wearing cheap t-shirts long after college.

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Not sure if you got hit with the triple whammy of having your education funding cut, as education costs were tripled, and then graduated just in time for the economic depression resulting from his policies, but even 2 out of 3 had to be bad. I got the trifecta.

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Yep, that was pretty much me.I graduated college in 1990, and even though I was not expecting to make a lot of money in the horse industry, I wasn't expecting to have such a hard time finding a job that paid more than minimum wage.

After a ridiculous job search, I thought I was totally screwed when I finally got stuck managing a theater for not much more than minimum wage.Then all these people from college with great degrees came by and were jealous that I had THAT GREAT job. I was like what the???? Soon afterword I realized I was actually very very lucky to have gotten what I did.I remember even a few years later going to a Chemistry convention and the area for employment had this line that was incredibly long. It was just supposed to be for recent graduates but it was filled with people of all ages and massive experience. One poor older guy trying to hustle for a simple entry position was almost brought to tears as they wouldn't except his resume because it was too long.Ah yes, those WERE the days. Soup lines for the well-educated.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

From Message 22: "Ah yes, those WERE the days. Soup lines for the well-educated." (holmes)So, are you saying that in addition to being the "Great Communicator," Reagan also deserves the title of the "Great Equalizer of Men?"(I mean, God forbid a well-educated person have to stand in line for soup kitchen hand-outs.)Peace. Ab.

He also declared open season on labor unions by breaking the airtraffic controllers. God may have mercy on his soul but we all have to live with his"legacy."

ehhhhh... no.Did you read any of the posts between me and schraf or understand them?Following the pattern he started in California, he gutted education which stranded countless students who were trying to improve their lives in an economic pit. And then his 'trickle-down' economics theory went dry stranding people without jobs, including those who were now stuck with massive debts.I wasn't trying to say its okay for people without degrees to be out of work.What I was trying to suggest is that it is an even WORSE SIGN OF MISMANAGING AN ECONOMY when highly educated and experienced people are forced into fighting for entry level jobs and scraps of whatever they can get.Any amount of mass unemployment is bad... across the board unemployment is much much worse.I can't believe your sympathy runs so deep you have to try and excuse everything. I suppose if I complained how he was always farting, you'd have to say "yeah but it always smelled like roses."

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Here's the link to the article I was referring to when I spoke about Reagan's impact on the fall of the Soviet Union, for those interested.Reagan and the Russians - 94.02Should Reagan be given credit because he facilitated the fall of the Soviet Union without war breaking out? And if so, what did he specifically do?

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So, are you saying that in addition to being the "Great Communicator," Reagan also deserves the title of the "Great Equalizer of Men?"

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Um, wouldn't a "Great Equalizer of Men" have increased taxes on the rich instead of decreased them?Wouldn't he have increased education funding to poor and middle class people instead of decreasing it?What he did was make sure only rich people could afford to send their kids to higher education without incuring massive personal debt, or perhaps not being able to afford it at all.Maybe you think that only rich people deserve to send their children to college?

I saw a recent interview with Gorbachev on CNN (or BBC, I can't remember now). The point he made was that although the "arms buildup" argument made by Republicans is fallacious, Reagan had to be given credit for helping end the Cold War and as an extension of this... communism in Russia.He did this by preventing things from escalating beyond hyperbole to actual armed conflict with the "Evil Empire". Instead of avoiding talks with his sworn enemy (which is what Bush Jr does), RR would go ahead and have meetings and work with Gorbachev on COMPROMISES (something else Bush Jr has no conception of).Now personally I believe that the credit Gorbachev gives RR is a little too much. As your link showed, it is unlikely the arms race did anything positive and perhaps worked to slow change in Russia. And RR's hyperbole at home certainly did not help build bridges between the nations... same goes for his funding of other entities that fought the Soviet military (as in Afghanistan).So while he managed to avoid the pitfalls his other actions caused, it can be reasonably argued that someone else may have been able to do a much better job than RR by not creating the pitfalls at all.The Soviet Union was crumbling anyway. We can be thankful RR kept things from exploding (ie it could have been worse), but that to me is a job done right (and he gets the cred), rather than a job well done (so he shouldn't get a medal).

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Others have responded to the the comments made, but I want to point out a few details.Loudmouth writes:

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3. Increased the number of jobs in America.

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Only as a raw number. From WW II to Clinton, there were five Democratic presidents and five Republican ones. Every Democratic president has turned in better job creation numbers than every Republican. Even Carter. In fact, Carter's numbers are #2 being beaten only by Lyndon Johnson according to 1994 numbers (I don't have the final numbers for Clinton's entire term.) And don't forget that Reagan's numbers are inflated due to the number of public-sector jobs he created. Clinton cut more public-sector jobs than Reagan created and still he beat Reagan's numbers.Yes, Reagan created jobs, but fewer than his predecessor and fewer than any other Democrat of the modem presidency.

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Supply side or not, he did vastly improve the way of life for most middle class Americans.

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Not compared to the 70s. Despite the economic collapse of the Nixon years, the economic output of the 70s beat that of the 80s. The economic stratification of the country increased in the 80s, reversing a long standing trend started in the 60s.

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As to ending the Cold War, Reagan does deserve some credit.

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In some sense, yes, in that he finished what JFK started. But he did it in part by scaring the hell out the entire world. His rhetoric convinced many in the USSR that he really was going to push the button.Throw in Iran-Contra and you're left with the impression that he was a traitor.And that doesn't even bring in his devastation of the care of the mentally ill, throwing many who needed hospitalization onto the streets where they could not survive.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Where to begin. Well, I'll look up some numbers, since you conveniently provide none, regarding the job creation etc.A couple of quick questions for you: 1- your definition of 'modern presidency.' From what date does this era begin? I want to know the parameters we are discussing. Well maybe you, Michael Moore, and Al Franken might, but I certainly wouldn't. You mean the bill sponsored by Patrick Moynahan (DEM NY) that required all individuals must be released from asylums who could not be demonstrated as a danger to themselves or others? That bill? The one for which Moynahan went on 60 minutes ten years later and took responsibility? The one Moynahan admitted was a good idea but had disastrous consequences?Yeah that was the President's fault.What else, the budget deficit? The ones the democratic congresses kept passing? That's the argument I love the most. Blame the Chief Executive for federal spending. Sorry, the power of the purse belongs to the legislative branch alone. The President can propose all the budgets he wants, but Congress actually has to pass them in order to spend the money. Because JFK didn't scare anyone during the Cuban Missile Crisis? And the USSR weren't acting like over-posturing maniacs? I don't remember Reagan pulling off is shoe and slamming it on the podium shouting 'we will crush you.' I think that was Nikita Kruschev. Small wonder that the American Chief Executive had to show some backbone.This message has been edited by custard, 06-13-2004 06:14 AM