Candy and games and responsibility.

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I deal with people like you, though, every day. Universally shitty tippers because they don't think that they should have to pay for good service.

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I'm in the UK - it's the convention to tip 10% regardless of the level of service. There is also an entirely different social structure behind it (you generally never tip in a cafe shop - why? don't know).

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Are you sure about that? It sure looks to me that the girls in the GAP are dressed a hell of a lot better, and more expensively, than the girls checking me out in Walmart. Of course, if you have the stats for that, I guess I'd like to see them.

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Think about this for a moment - why do you think this is the case?This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 09-28-2004 07:23 PM

In America you don't usually tip in a coffeehouse, because they don't bring you the items. Though they usually have a little tip jar set up, and I'll occasionally dump my change in.But I see that you didn't address my point - you can't on one hand say "the market will reward better service if it values better service" and then tell us how you'd scam a business out of good advice but shop at the discount joint.The "market" isn't some hypothetical group that has infinite money and no sense. You're the market, Charles. The market is just like you; it values better service but refuses to reward it with business. The GAP charges more, and can afford to pay more? I mean, if we're just going to make up explanations without any data, I might as well make up an explanation that supports my argument...This message has been edited by crashfrog, 09-28-2004 07:28 PM

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But I see that you didn't address my point - you can't on one hand say "the market will reward better service if it values better service" and then tell us how you'd scam a business out of good advice but shop at the discount joint.

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But by value - I mean WILL PAY - that's the only real measure of value in economic terms. The market very clearly only supports this at the niche level - the rest of us want cheap box-shifters. So what I say is entirely right - the market WILL reward better service if it "values" it - it clearly does not.

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The GAP charges more, and can afford to pay more? I mean, if we're just going to make up explanations without any data, I might as well make up an explanation that supports my argument...

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Nope - do you think the upmarket joints are going to want their staff looking like they work in walmart? Not very appealing for customers and clearly would not fit with the brand - unless things are seriously different in the states, this is how it works:The stores gives an allowance for clothing (or generally just give you a set amount that you can "spend" in store on clothes)- They want you to look the part. In addition, you get a staff discount (paradoxically - it seems to be the more upmarket the chain, the higher the discount. Warehouse used to offer 75% to staff under certain conditions)**My sister is a retail clothes buyer so she's fills me in on such stuff.

Clearly the service is valued; or else you wouldn't drive across town to two different stores to get the service from one and the price from another.But saying the only measure of value is if something is paid for is stupid. By that measure, anything that can be stolen has no value whatsoever.And see, that's why Schraf accused you of stealing. You clearly valued the service the first store provided. But you didn't keep your end of the implied contract - you actually spent your money somewhere else. Shoplifting is still stealing, even if nobody sees you do it. Your act of shoplifting doesn't devalue the item you took; it still has value. (It must have, or why would you have taken it?) Likewise, the fact that you chose not to pay for the service you recieved doesn't mean the service has no value; it means that the market failed to reward someone for the value the market recieved. No, as you've shown us, what you want is good service; what you're willing to pay for is the discount chain. You're trying to say that value = willingness to pay when clearly, as evidenced by your own actions, there's a disconnect between the two.It's that disconnect that drives down prices and wages at the expense, ultimately, of the consumer. Maybe in the UK, but not in any store around here that I've heard of. They do, though, have a dress code. There's nothing paradoxical about that - the upscale stores have higher margins; they can afford to discount farther.

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No, as you've shown us, what you want is good service; what you're willing to pay for is the discount chain. You're trying to say that value = willingness to pay when clearly, as evidenced by your own actions, there's a disconnect between the two.

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No I'm not saying willingness I'm saying WILL - value = what people will ACTUALLY pay, no more than that, no less - that's the reality. What I'd like had zero bearing on the economic reality of the situation.

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But saying the only measure of value is if something is paid for is stupid. By that measure, anything that can be stolen has no value whatsoever.

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I am clearly and very narrowly talking just economics - if you want to discuss value in some other sense, you need to get a different dance partner.We can talk around the subject all night but at the end of the day - I'm still going to buy the lowest I can - if that affects service well that's a trade-off most of us are willing to make (expect for people in the niches).

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Likewise, the fact that you chose not to pay for the service you recieved doesn't mean the service has no value; it means that the market failed to reward someone for the value the market recieved.

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Or it means that they economic model that they are using to offer their expertise is incorrect - it allows the free rider. I work off billable hours - you pay or I don't play.Anyway it's 1am and I'm off to bed!

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But you didn't keep your end of the implied contract - you actually spent your money somewhere else.

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Hold on a minute - if I get advice in a shop, I'm beholden to purchase something in that shop?anyway I'm not sure why I'm arguing this one - besides papers,booze and clothes - I do the rest on the net!

It would be good form.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Oh? Maybe you want to ask the guy whose time you wasted, who could have made an actual sale to someone while you picked his brain for free. And I'm talking about the economic effect people like you have - stimulating a massive corporate refocus away from service and quality and right to the cheapest goods, services, and labor.

The clerk has made an investment of time in you; time he could have spent making sales to someone else.So, yeah, you're beholden in the same way that you're beholden to tip the waiter.

I'm truly astonished that you see no economic ramifications in the time spent by employees at a business, nor in the training and compensation of those employees.

A legal contract, no. But purposely going one place for the great service with the intention of going somewhere else with lousy service but a great price is the sign of a cheap bastard who doesn't care if he wastes other people's time.

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I'm truly astonished that you see no economic ramifications in the time spent by employees at a business, nor in the training and compensation of those employees.

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I do see them, I just don't care. It's just not my problem as an informed consumer.My job is to screw them to the ground on price, their job is maximize profits - we generally met in the middle ground somewhere.You could argue that my actions promote economic effenciency - as the ramifications of my actions prompt changes in how organizations operate (or they go bust and are replaced by those who's business models are supported by the market).

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A legal contract, no. But purposely going one place for the great service with the intention of going somewhere else with lousy service but a great price is the sign of a cheap bastard who doesn't care if he wastes other people's time.

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I take that as a compliment. Money is difficult stuff to generate and keep hold of, I make no apologies in trying to maximize the benefit of mine.

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stimulating a massive corporate refocus away from service and quality and right to the cheapest goods, services, and labor.

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Well if you don't like it, make sure you get more people to support the economic model you want. From what I've seen you don't have much of a chance in the states. There was a great doc a while back looking at the effect of cheap imports on chairmakers. They went to this retail place that was selling them and who did they find? a group of their wifes taking advantage of the low,low prices!At the end of the day, talk is cheap - it's where you plunk your quid down that counts.

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Naw - low barriers to entry to the market place,

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Excuse me? There are PLENTY of barriers for entry into the market place.Why do you think some communities are refusing to let WalMart open up stores in their area? It's because they know what will happen; all of the smaller, privately-owned businesses will be forced out of business, taking away better-paying, locally-provided (neighbor employing neighbor) jobs and replacing them with lower-paying jobs provided by a corporate entity that is not tied to the community.

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someone will move into the niche, you exploit them and then wait for the next one to arrive.

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What we see now is people, including you, being focused almost completely upon cost. What we have seen as a result is small, independently- and locally-owned businesses being forced out of business by large, identical chain stores which have none of the unique products, service, or character of the businsess they put out of the market.It is the illusion of choice, because every WalMart is exactly the same, and they market themselves to the middle of the road, average customer.WalMart is the only retailer left in some communities, but do they have the selection of music that the local record store used to have, or the selection of yarn and fabric the local sewing store used to have, or the seletion of furniture the local furniture used to have? Nope.It doesn't take long for a new generation to not even be aware of what used to be available to them.We've seen this with artisan foods hundreds of times. Industrial food production moves in and starts producing a cheese, let's say, that is much cheaper than it's hand-made counterpart but is not anywhere near as good. Pretty soon the hand-made real thing disappears, because a critical mass of people who have never even had the real thing has been reached.Are we well-served by the marketplace now, with bland, artificial ingredient-laden cheese that tastes bland and and advertises itself as "containing real milk!" being the norm and real, delectable, wholesome artisinally produced cheese extinct?

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what a load of rubbish - on that basic any conversation with an expert would be contractual in nature.

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Come on, you're avoiding my greater point. With a business that provides expert service, the cost of that service is included in the cost of the product. You use that service but don't also buy the product, you are getting something for nothing. It is not stealing in a legal sense but it is in an ethical sense if you use the service but never intend to reward the superior service by buying from the company with better service.So, do you disagree that taking the expert advice from one company, that costs money to provide to you, but then consistently failing to support that company with your money but instead supporting another company that does not spend the money to provide expert service, will eventually put the first company out of business?How does a company stay in business when nobody buys their products? The only way they will do so is if they stop spending the money on training their employees. There will be no reason for an "expert" to work at a business like that, so, once again, a retail land full of low-wage know-nothings.

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That's nether here or there - what if Walmart charged 100% more for its products?, it does not automatically follow that the wages would be higher.

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Ah, but it would level the playing field for other, smaller, locally-owned business to be able to stay in business, thus letting them offer competatively-paying jobs with better working conditions. WalMart will have to raise wages in order to attract enough people to work for them. I disagree that highly-trained sales people do not get paid significantly more than WalMart workers, particularly if you figure in people on commission. Think automobile salespeople.I can point to my own company as an example of how things can be, and are in a growing number of businesses as other business owners emulate us. Those at the top of the organization get paid a bit less than the industry average and those at the bottom get paid a lot more than the industry average.Minimum wage in MI is $5.25/hr. My starting wage 6 years ago was $9.00/hr. I have gotten steady merit raises, bonuses, gain sharing, and increases to my employee discount all along. I now make just as much as many mid-level office managers do.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-29-2004 07:49 AM