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Author Topic:   update: freedom found, natural selection theory pushed aside
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 241 of 318 (481025)
09-08-2008 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by rueh
09-08-2008 3:33 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
Your philosophy is not consistent with your practical common knowledge. Why fantasize about how freedom might work, when you have practical knowledge of freedom that already works. So just find the general principles in the common knowledge, they work, your theory simply does not work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by rueh, posted 09-08-2008 3:33 PM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by rueh, posted 09-08-2008 4:06 PM Syamsu has replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 242 of 318 (481026)
09-08-2008 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Syamsu
09-08-2008 3:50 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
You keep restating this, however you never say why. Give me an example. Please explain why my philosophy, that decision making is a function of the brain, is inconsistent with my practical common knowledge that, decision making is a function of the brain.
So just find the general principles in the common knowledge, they work, your theory simply does not work.
Please show me an example of the general principles in common knowledge. Whatever that means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Syamsu, posted 09-08-2008 3:50 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Syamsu, posted 09-08-2008 4:15 PM rueh has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 243 of 318 (481028)
09-08-2008 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by rueh
09-08-2008 4:06 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
As before, I can go left or right, the alternatives are in the future. Now it is pretty more important to acknowledge this time principle, rather then the brain. We are interested in general principles, not particulars. So the structure is x has alternative futures, the act of realizing the one instead of the other is a decision. etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by rueh, posted 09-08-2008 4:06 PM rueh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Blue Jay, posted 09-08-2008 4:29 PM Syamsu has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 244 of 318 (481029)
09-08-2008 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Straggler
09-08-2008 1:12 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
Hi, Straggler.
Staggler writes:
Lets not submit to that outrageously philosophical position borne of evidence and observation that brains have a rather important role to play in decision making.
PhD tuition here at Kentucky costs about nine thousand a semester, which all seems like such a waste now that I know I would have been better off just buying a toothbrush for a dollar and seventy-eight cents.
Edited by Bluejay, : A little paring action.

-Bluejay
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Straggler, posted 09-08-2008 1:12 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 245 of 318 (481031)
09-08-2008 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Syamsu
09-08-2008 4:15 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
Hi, Syamsu.
Syamsu writes:
So the structure is x has alternative futures, the act of realizing the one instead of the other is a decision. etc.
Is this all you mean when you say, "The alternatives are in the future?"
Let's say that there are four possible outcomes of a certain event. When the event happens, we observe that outcome #3 happens, and outcomes #1, #2 and #4 do not.
How could you show me that this was an active decision and not a random effect?
How could you show me that outcomes #1, #2 and #4 even existed?

-Bluejay
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Syamsu, posted 09-08-2008 4:15 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Syamsu, posted 09-08-2008 5:12 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 246 of 318 (481033)
09-08-2008 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Blue Jay
09-08-2008 4:29 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
Right, I should look for more tightly evidenced examples of anticipation theory, such as about an harmonic oscilator, slime moulds, mercurys perihelion as ive seen mentioned on the internet. And then I will just reference these examples as a basis in the more broad and speculative researchprogram of creationism. But why oh why you all oppose such reasoning as with the creation of the elephant still remains a deep mystery to me. Your opposition says direct evidence means nothing, which is unexplainable. You have direct experience of alternatives in the future, and yet here you go asking me......nullifying direct experience, and supposedly that is the scientific thing to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Blue Jay, posted 09-08-2008 4:29 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Blue Jay, posted 09-08-2008 5:19 PM Syamsu has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 247 of 318 (481034)
09-08-2008 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Syamsu
09-08-2008 5:12 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
What do you have against answering questions?
Bluejay writes:
How could you show me that this was an active decision and not a random effect?
How could you show me that outcomes #1, #2 and #4 even existed?
Edited by Bluejay, : No reason given.

-Bluejay
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Syamsu, posted 09-08-2008 5:12 PM Syamsu has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 248 of 318 (481041)
09-08-2008 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Syamsu
09-08-2008 3:18 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
People dont talk about being brainbroken, they talk about being heartbroken.
People have had heart transplants without any indication of a complete change of personality or moral outlook.
People with brain damage have undergone large scale personality change and, decision making ability impairement and even radical changes in moral outlook.
http://www.findcounseling.com/..._truths_about_morality.html
So that indicates that your braintheory is just philosophy with no practical use
To deny the role of brains in the decision making process is like explaining night and day without acknowledging the existence of the sun.
Syamsu I think you need help.............

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Syamsu, posted 09-08-2008 3:18 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Syamsu, posted 09-09-2008 4:43 PM Straggler has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 249 of 318 (481150)
09-09-2008 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Straggler
09-08-2008 5:52 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
As mentioned before, the debate hinges on whether the alternatives are in the future, or if they are in the present. When they are in the future, then creationism is true, and when they are in the present then materialism is true. Or so to say either everything is by decision, or everything is by causes. Currently mainstream-science has alternatives in the present, except this new science of anticipation theory. But you previously said you believed alternatives are in the future, so then your are just arguing in favor of creationism.
Or perhaps you want to have 2 separate time functions in the universe, one time which only works from the past, or present and contains the future in itself leading to perfect predictability, and one in which tme progresses by a decision on alternatives in the future. That leads to a historical view of the universe of unique events and imperfect predictability.
Now we all know that the last is true, that creationism is true, and why anybody would oppose that is some kind of philosophical game they are playing for God only knows what benefit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Straggler, posted 09-08-2008 5:52 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by bluescat48, posted 09-09-2008 5:01 PM Syamsu has replied
 Message 251 by Blue Jay, posted 09-09-2008 5:24 PM Syamsu has not replied
 Message 252 by Straggler, posted 09-09-2008 6:15 PM Syamsu has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 250 of 318 (481156)
09-09-2008 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Syamsu
09-09-2008 4:43 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
Now we all know that the last is true, that creationism is true
BS, there are many who hold that creation is mythological + the fact that for creation to be true all physics laws would have to have changed, which is more fantastic that the probability of creation itself. I, also, don't see anticipation theory is even a theory, from what I've seen it is an untested hypothesis.
Edited by bluescat48, : misplaced "'"

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Syamsu, posted 09-09-2008 4:43 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Syamsu, posted 09-10-2008 3:31 AM bluescat48 has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 251 of 318 (481161)
09-09-2008 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Syamsu
09-09-2008 4:43 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
Syamsu writes:
Now we all know that the last is true, that creationism is true, and why anybody would oppose that is some kind of philosophical game they are playing for God only knows what benefit.
You are a complete jackass, man.
"Everybody knows I'm right; they're just in denial."
Yep. Good show, mate.

-Bluejay
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Syamsu, posted 09-09-2008 4:43 PM Syamsu has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 252 of 318 (481166)
09-09-2008 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Syamsu
09-09-2008 4:43 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
  • You have failed to make clear why you think it is that real science does not allow for alternate futures.
  • You have failed to demonstrate how the theory you advocate accounts for the very real predictability of simple physical systems.
  • You have failed to account for the fact that no decision that does not involve a physical brain has ever been observed.
  • You have failed to show how the theory you advocate can actually be meaningfully tested.
    Your whole argument can be summed up thus: "I can choose to go left or right. Therefore anticipation theory is true. Therefore creationism is true". You have literally said no more than this in a thread of over 250 posts.
    On the other hand you have demonstrated a complete inability to comprehend any interpretation of quantum theory, a complete lack of knowledge regarding evolutionary theory, a willful ignorance of the scientific method and an irrational dependence on the "subjective supernatural realm" dressed up as "common sense" in the most bizzarre way possible. The practical result of this is that you have claimed, in all seriousness during the course of this debate, that toothbrushes and walnuts make decisions, that paperclips are capable of love, that planets and coffee cups make moral choices and that dead brainless mice are indistinguishable from those fully functioning living members of the mouse fraternity in terms of their capacity to make decisions.
    In short you have exemplified the creationist position by basking in ignorance, opposing a strawman version of the science that you oppose and clinging to bloody minded certainty despite the self evident stupidity and absurdity of your position. The only difference is that in this case the ridiculousness of your position is sooooo unbelievably plain as to be humiliating. I suspect that even the creationists who have witnessed your arguments think you are an embarrassment to the cause.
    Anyway. I have a date with a very loving, benevolent and morally upstanding toaster. So I will have to leave you to your insanity.
    WARNING: Abandon hope all ye who enter here. This thread is no place for rational human beings (or like minded chocolate bars)
    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 249 by Syamsu, posted 09-09-2008 4:43 PM Syamsu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 253 by likemindedchocolatebar, posted 09-09-2008 11:20 PM Straggler has not replied
     Message 254 by Syamsu, posted 09-10-2008 2:53 AM Straggler has not replied

      
    likemindedchocolatebar
    Junior Member (Idle past 5672 days)
    Posts: 5
    From: Hershey, Pennsylvania
    Joined: 09-09-2008


    Message 253 of 318 (481208)
    09-09-2008 11:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 252 by Straggler
    09-09-2008 6:15 PM


    Re: The Importance of Brains
    Aw man this debate was just starting to heat up

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 252 by Straggler, posted 09-09-2008 6:15 PM Straggler has not replied

      
    Syamsu 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
    Posts: 1914
    From: amsterdam
    Joined: 05-19-2002


    Message 254 of 318 (481230)
    09-10-2008 2:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 252 by Straggler
    09-09-2008 6:15 PM


    Re: The Importance of Brains
    As before, the time principle, that is the real question from which the rest follows. Try and answer it.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 252 by Straggler, posted 09-09-2008 6:15 PM Straggler has not replied

      
    Syamsu 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
    Posts: 1914
    From: amsterdam
    Joined: 05-19-2002


    Message 255 of 318 (481234)
    09-10-2008 3:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 250 by bluescat48
    09-09-2008 5:01 PM


    Re: The Importance of Brains
    We all use the historical view in daily life, so we all know its true.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 250 by bluescat48, posted 09-09-2008 5:01 PM bluescat48 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 256 by bluescat48, posted 09-10-2008 5:43 AM Syamsu has replied

      
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