Justify damnation, dammit!

Hmm... well, fumbducks.I see your point, and the fact that neither of them have answered the important questions directly kind of proves it. However, seeing my name they have a pre-discussion impression of me, and as such seem to be trying to guilt me into thinking like I 'should' instead of actually debating the point.With both these thoughts in mind, what do you propose I do if, like it seems, they're not going to answer my questions and just mindlessly throw guilt trips and scripture at me?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

I totally disagree with you and Lam. I think they have. I think the real problem is that you and Lam are incorporating the typical atheist stance, which is; "Because I think it's morally wrong - I must be right, and not God". Like we are some kind of nit wits that don't understand morals????Huh????? (I=morals)If you had read any bible, you would see that this is not the case. Also, Lam says that he was young and thought anyone who disagreed with him(I=morals) would go to hell.You see, Hangdawg gave the scriptural explanation concerning righteoussnes, and to be fair - you just blew him off and started swearing at Buz.Unless you and Lam actually read the bible, you will in no way understand what we are talking about. You will perceive it as; "Oh so God knows best therefore hell is correct somehow". But trust me, that is an incredibly naive and ignorant perception from a typical atheist standpoint - which I have suffered to my immense frustration.I guaruntee you and Lam have little bible reading/understanding concerning just how IMPORTANT that bit about righteoussness is.We don't "wish" hell on anyone, that is why you and Lam are failing to understand this. "We" and "I" mean nothing to us, Buz has already explained this. (I=morals)(I also can kill = who the f*ck am I to say anything)We need not justify hell. The wicked themselves justify it.Go see an innocent baba getting killed, then you'll wish for hell to exist.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-25-2004 08:14 PM

Thank you for your response. And I told you why. I gave you all of the theological and biblical reasons, which you ignore.Life is about choice. Do you want God or not? Everyone who has the ability to choose is accountable for this decision. God does not force people to reside with him. They must choose. Those who choose against God get what they choose. They do NOT all say the same thing. If you want to start a topic discussing what makes Christianity unique, be my guest. LoL... Maybe you should start that topic if you want to debate this. No, no one DESERVES to be saved more than another. If you really do believe that one person deserves to be saved over another, tell me on what grounds your judgement is based. You can tell a blind man that the grass is green and the sky is blue, and the only way he knows you're right is by belief. You are like the blind man who's never even experienced color demanding proof that grass is green and sky is blue. Since I cannot give you proof, you are inclined to believe that I am wrong. This is your CHOICE.All of human history exists for the purpose of proving the integrity of God's character to angels and men. We are all born blind. For now we must believe that God's Word is true. When we believe in Christ and recieve the Holy Spirit, its as though we get a seeing eye dog who, if we allow him, will guide us down the right path. When we enter the next phase, life after death, our eyes will be completely opened. We will know fully even as we are fully known. Since you are blind I cannot give you proof. But I have a Holy Dog. I have had faith in Him, and He has led me to great places. Faith is the essence of things being confidently hoped, the evidence of things not having been seen. It IS a good question; one I've asked myself before many times. I'm trying to supply you with the conclusions I came to.I am not trying to guilt trip you. I'm trying to get you to think outside yourself for a moment.How does God communicate his will to us? If you are one day going to be responsible for the "instruction in righteousness" of a congregation, WHAT are you going to teach them? and WHERE are you going to get these teachings from? If you do not believe in the inspired Word of God, how do you know what you're teaching is truth.If you don't even know whether you're teaching truth or not, then why teach? How do you know if you're misleading people?If you aren't sure of the veracity of your teachings, then it might be time to pursue a different career field. If you ARE sure of the veracity of your teachings, and your teachings come from yourself, then why should anyone else listen to you?ETA: Haha... I may have just discovered a new dimension of meaning to my name... I'm HANGin' on to my Holy Dawg as He's tuggin at the leash!This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-25-2004 04:21 PM

I wish...If all goes as planned, it WILL be me, a Marine Corps officer, in that F-18 cockpit in about four years. This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-25-2004 04:27 PM

Sorry, Mike. But when you step into the crossfire... I never said that. I don's assume I'm right and God is wrong, especially because I'm not sure God really does this. But if I'm wrong, point out why I'm wrong. I'll listen. However, so far all I've gotten are scriptures that say 'God is just'. I don't want someone to tell me that God is just, I want them to tell me why. I've read the King James Version and Methodist version, or at least most of both(they're almost identical, except Methodist uses more modern language for ease of read.)Point out scriptures that justify sending honest non-believers to hell, please. It just said that God was righteous as I recall, I want to know why. Or maybe you're referring to the part that says none of us are righteous. Agreed, but some are more than others; most would agree that Ghandi's a more righteous person than Hitler?I asked for admins to put this in FFA because I'd need to swear to convey how important a topic this is. The part about the train was ment to be funny, apparently he didn't think it was, and I do feel bad for that. I would disagree, but as soon as I get a chance I'll look at those scriptures Hang put up again to honestly give your point a shot. I never said you wished hell on anyone. But according to scripture God doesn't seem to have a problem with it. That is my latest concern; it's nothing personal with you guys. Seen it. I've also seen some good people die who may not have known God. Is it worth tagging so many innocent lives just to get the bad guys? That's like nuking a city to get a few cereal killers hidden somewhere in it.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

No theist tries to be 'against God'. They just have a different understanding of how to be on the same side as Him. No reason to send someone to hell for misinformation or picking the wrong easter basket. Not exactly, but it's quite similar in the fact that all point to some kind of salvation if you do the right stuff. That much I know we agree on. Fine, let's say they describe him differently. ANSWER MY QUESTION. Hitler was raised Catholic if I'm not mistaken. Ghandi was Hindu. Are you going to tell me Ghandi isn't just a hair more deserving of a pat on the back than Hitler? Please tell me you wouldn't trust them equally. But I am not completely blind in this respect; I know that torture is wrong. According to scripture, God will allow people, lots of them good people, to be cast into hell because they picked(or were born into) the wrong religion. Since they did not intentionally 'not make par', I must conclude that this hell-sending of good people is immoral. This is why, and it has nothing to do with belief. It's complete understanding of the morality I'm talking about. I'm trying to get you to see a point of view other than your own as well, but I think I might need a plunger My own morality is another topic and one I'm not bothered discussion. Open a topic for said discussion and I'll participate.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

You cannot honestly be telling me that everyone thinks the same way. The fact of the matter is, some people are more left-brained, some are more right-brained, and some lie right around the middle. I have on idea if my mind is more logic-based than yours, but I do know that mine is very much so logic-based. The simple fact is, because of this, I just CANNOT believe in something without proof. There isn't any "trick" to believing something. You don't choose what you believe, you just believe. Trust me, I wish something would come along that would prove God's existence to me, but it simply never does. Life would have more meaning, and many other things in my life would be justified. Of course, many things would also be pretty peculiar if there was a God, but that isn't the point.So my point is, yes, I have control over my will but not my beliefs. So, going back to my original message, if I strive to respect others and treat them well, why should I be going to hell for not believing in something?--------------------
In regards to my statement, "If there is a God, he better damn well not send me to hell." True, if he exists he did give me the opportunity to follow him and be saved, an opportunity that I took advantage of for the first 16 years of my life. The fact is, however, that he did/has NOT given me the capability to believe he exists. With the way my mind works (and I dare ANY of you to tell me my mind works differently than I say it does), I can believe only what I have either observed to be real or what I know has a basis on such things that can be observed. Often times I may give something the benefit of the doubt, but at this point I feel that there is just too much weighing against Christianity in terms of reasoning and evidence for me to give it this benefit any longer.What I said may have been poorly worded in terms of getting my point across, but it was by no means arrogant.------------------- Unless I missed it, Prince Lucianus did not ever say "if there is a God, he better not send me to hell." That was actually me that said that. Please do not begin the fundamentalist (not to say you are one) trend of picking, choosing, and altering quotes in whatever way you deem desirable. If Prince actually did say that though, I apologize.Edit: Fixed a grammar mistake.This message has been edited by Glordag, 07-26-2004 12:21 AMThis message has been edited by Glordag, 07-26-2004 12:22 AM

God=?
Man=?
?x?=one
(unless either ?=0)This message has been edited by entwine, 07-26-2004 04:37 AM

Hangdawg13 says: Then God requires nothing of us. Were we created so empty, so lacking that God saw nothing of value? That's a lot of wiggle room. Suppose he's just a plain atheist, or an amnesiac? What if he was once saved and just quit? Are there levels in your heaven and hell too?

Hey - that's fair. Even I doubt that christians are something special. Infact the NT says that we are grafted in, and that how much easier would it be for the Olive branches to be grafted unto it's own. Therefore - no boasting nor "claiming exclusive rights" of heaven (from an individual bunch of people) will ever be the way to go. Are you discussing morals? A rapist is obviously without morals compared to a Buddhist monk. Therefore, the Monk has the better moral. In the same way - an atheist might have a better moral than a Christian priest. Yet righteoussnes is not who does the best, for the only way ANY of us are acceptable to God, is with complete holiness/perfection/God's spirit. Therefore, our righteoussness is as "filthy rags in my sight". Even Christ said to the hypocrits that they had made some laws of none-effect, through the justification in their OWN minds. This righteoussness is not easily described to you in a post - and took several bible studies for me to understand. The scripture also makes out that any effort of ours is an unworthy one. That ALL are sinful in God's sight. Have you read Leviticus? The part where God says he's coming down for some kind of special visit. A THOROUGH cleansing/purification of ALL humans was necessary, because if they had one blemish in God's presence - they would literally drop dead in his sight. Not because God is a killer - but because you really cannot survive God's true presence with one blemish of sin.For more understanding, try thinking of it like this; Your cat brings you a dead rat, and looks at you with expectation, as if to say "look what I have brought you to eat". Yet it is a festering abomination a dead rat, and the lesser beings "idea" of righteoussness is most un-intelligent. Now times it by a trillion and think of what God thinks of our morals.Sorry if I was too harsh in that other post- I still love your baba.

Okay, I've got no arguement with this. First I'll mention that, yes. This thread was meant to discuss morality, particularly the morality of God sending good non-believers to hell. I think I understand it. But... this is where it gets to my original problem. See, this understanding of 'righteousness' calls for a different word. This is the dictionary.com definition:Righteousness:
1.Morally upright; without guilt or sin: a righteous parishioner.
2.In accordance with virtue or morality: a righteous judgment.
3.Morally justifiable: righteous anger. See Synonyms at moral.So that would refer to who has better morals. What I want to know is why God wouldn't accept this righteousness as opposed to the righteousness of just so happening to believe the right religion. The latter almost sounds like luck. Yeah, but God doesn't have crappy vision. We may all be sinful, but he can see who is a nicer person than another even more easily than we can. I particularly dislike Leviticus because it's a very harshly written and demanding book. The God described in it sounds nothing like the NT God; the former is a tyrant, dictating our every move and every ritual with the punishment of fire and brimstone should we dare make one mistake. The truly Highest power in the universe would have morality above doing this. Okay, good analogy. However, I would still praise the cat and give him a treat for the rat. I would definetly throw it in the trash behind his back, but I would give him a treat for it because he meant well. God's a lot more forgiving than I am, so wouldn't he do the same for us? According to the Bible, he takes the rat away, and throws US in the fiery garbage disposal of ETERNAL HELLFIRE!!!Anyway, it's alright if you're being serious. You're a good guy and obviously better versed in the Bible than I. It's when people pin 'preacher' on me and expect me to think a certain way that irritates me.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

We are "chosen" - rather than us choosing. I don't believe it is luck, but then - complicated explanations are needed unfortunately.Christ even said to his followers, "except your righteoussness exceed that of the scribes and pharisees, how shall you enter heaven" (similar words). Now we are talking about the most incredibly strict and religious people when he mentions these, many of whom obey the law of Moses to upmost stringent capacity. So obviously, that's a good point - how can we enter when these people have obeyed the law? You see - Christ knows that his actions on the cross are an acceptable atonement to God (for us). It is he that makes us alive - rather than following the law of sin and death, we have the law of spirit and life. IOW, no action can "earn" us heaven. For as soon as we go against one commandment, we fail all of the law. THIS is why it is written, "if you follow the law of Moses, - you must follow it completely, (if circumcised etc)"(similar words)(forgive my laziness). Yet God accounted Abraham's faith AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. So to go it alone (law) rather than rely on God, is not the way. Christ is the way. Christ said "Only one is good - God". And only one atonement pleases God. "You are my son, in thee I am well pleased". So if someone is "more" righteouss than I am (not possible), let them speak. Meanwhile - morals and the "better moralist" are likened unto this; "Here - I have brought you a dead rat, but this other cat has brought you two". They are both an abomination - away with these foolish cats, let them rather do as I say. I understand this, yes. Obviously there is a difference between a good man who brings forth treasure from a good heart, rather than an evil one - who brings forth evil treasure. But this "nicer person" thing, when put to the test, will open your eyes. Have you ever invisioned hitting someone in anger B2P? Answer me honestly. (BTW - I am positive you are nice) But when the Spirit reveals the truth, the old "world blinkers" come off. And you won't believe the evil of our own heart. Well, only one is good - God. But ofcourse, people are also good to me aswell(like you). But then - I am a cat. As for the bible, I guess the only difference is that I believe it is the inspired word of God. There is no harm in you asking for revelation from God though, you are a christian the same as me remember. And a good baba too. This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-26-2004 08:39 PM

I don't care how many or few of those dead rats that the cats bring; they both meant well for me and for doing so I'm going to give them each a treat. Good, so then people SHOULD be saved whether they belive or not; lots of other religions have different ways to salvation. I'm sorry, but I'm not at all for giving salvation for good guessing. And, if us believers really are chosen and the others are not, why us? Why the crusaders, the inquisitioners, and all those other terrible people we are? If these are God's people, I'll take the down home heathens any day of the week. Now, which significant figure in Christianity did the same thing again? Honestly, I don't know who would waste time invisioning when you could just hit the bastard. That's what I've done a few good times, if you want a straight out and truthful answer. I didn't say I was always(or much at all?) morally correct; I'm talking about the ones that are morally correct who should be in heaven despite their bad guesswork. I asked Hangdawg several times to prove this without just saying He is. I'm sorry, but if you want to gain any ground at all in this discussion you're going to have to prove this somehow. Otherwise, we can't be sure that God's alledged judgement is moral. Or, we can come to the conclusion that God is truly moral, and he would bring salvation to even the nonbelievers if they truly wanted to know their God(same as ours anyway) and be a good person. I've been wanting and praying for one. So far no answer, so until God comminicates the truth to me somehow I'm sticking to my guns that salvation is truly for everyone like God said, not just lucky guessers.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

(I'm sorry if this has been mentioned, but I haven't had the chance to read the last 10 or so posts - just noticed that there was no reply to this in particular, and it's rather late here... For the same reason, I apologize if it doesn't make much sense or is vague; my mind is wandering. Also probably means I'll be able to top buz's run-on sentence that B2P mentioned at one point - I tend to skip periods and head straight for semicolons, parentheses, and dashes. )

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I had no control over how I was made, so the fact that my mind is too logic-based to accept religion unquestionably is no fault of mine. How does it make sense that I be sent to hell for something I have no control over?

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You have no control over your will?

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You think your mind is more logic-based than mine?

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The only difference between you and I, is that I believe in Christ and you do not. It is a choice. It is not something one is forced to by his own human logic, though if you do believe it all makes sense. If human wisdom brought a person to Christ, then it would not be fair to all the dummies out there. It is a choice, plain and simple. If you believe fully, everything about it makes sense.

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I disagree - I think you're confusing will and belief. I cannot control my belief. I could go to church every week for the rest of my life and live by the Bible, but it wouldn't change the fact that I am too cynical and too skeptical to believe in what is, to me, utter nonsense. That could very well have been how the whole Pascal's Wager idea came about - he didn't believe, but he figured he might as well act like he did just in case it was right. As a result, he supposedly is damned anyway. (Feel free to correct if wrong, I never really paid much attention to the "wager" and have only a quick "encyclopedia summary"-type knowledge of it)No matter how much I want to believe that the computer I'm typing to actually doesn't exist, I don't, because it is quite obvious from my view that it is right there.I can't choose to believe in Jesus as the son of God because I don't believe in Jesus as the son of God. Belief is not a choice....I have similar objections to a supposedly just God who condemns based on sinful thoughts even without action, because you can control your actions, but you cannot control your mind. That isn't justice.On a side note, just wanted to comment on Message 19:

quote:

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You said if there is a God, he better not send you to hell. I think we can infer from that statement that you have doubts about God’s existence. You have obviously been told about God yet you have doubts. You will not be able to argue ignorance. I guess you will still have the ‘You Created Me’ argument. I hope that works. When I meet my maker, my only defense against hell, will be Jesus.

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I have also heard stories where the devil is actually the good, rebelling against a corrupt God, and we must place our faith in him instead... Uh oh! - I have been told about the devil and yet I have doubts. I will not be able to argue ignorance.Better example - what if it turned out that Islam was the correct faith after all? You know of it, but you believe in Christianity.Just because an idea is presented to you doesn't mean it seems probable to you. So what if I've been told of God - it still sounds like one big fairy tale to me; that's not ignorance, it's simply a reasonable reaction from a logical person. You can't expect others to believe your religious ideas simply because they have been acknowledged of them. Otherwise, via the previous paragraph, you would now be Islamic. So the question is, would a loving God turn away his creations simply because they thought, given the knowledge they had at their disposal and the mind they were born with, that Christianity was *not* based on truths? There is no guilt and no wrong in questioning what one sees as inconsistencies, especially with so many other options that all claim to be the truth.As for the original post: I'd have to say that I think a loving God would accept his children into heaven even if the most virtuous of them were "-R" (Message 61) in his eyes - and I certainly don't see why accepting Jesus will magically alleviate this taint of man's soul in God's eyes, in any case.(Thought: Perhaps the one of the reasons I don't believe in the God of the Bible is because he demands of men perfection he knows they cannot accomplish, and then is supposedly benevolent and just. Even if he did send Jesus for this reason, the fact that there are still moral - not good/righteous, note, since that is supposedly impossible for men in comparison to God, but moral - disbelievers who are being sent to hell simply for having a different belief seems inconsistent with the reasons he was sending him in the first place.) ...Too tired to think about it, will reread this sometime soon... Oh, and I do believe I hit that run-on in the last sentence there.

Sorry, for neglecting to reply to your post.I've talked to a few people from different backgrounds and different beliefs. There was a time when I had questions similar to those you presented, but after actually speaking to people it is obvious what is meant by the phrase "hardening of the heart".It is always a choice. No matter how much you want to deny it, you have a choice. I have given people the information many times that would completely change their life, but they reject it because they think that they can find a better way.There is ample evidence that God exists. Of course we have ample ability to deny he exists and overlook or explain away the evidence. So it's really not about evidence, although the evidence confirms your beliefs as true. Its about what you believe. What I believe is true about God has been confirmed to me so many times, nothing can shake my faith.There are many rational lines of thought that lead people to the knowledge of the existence of God if they truly want to know if he exists.Once they have acknowledged that He exists, they have to make a decision of whether or not they want to know him. If they want to know Him, He will provide the means for them. You most certainly can. But believing in Christ does not mean denying what we perceive by other means. No, but you can change the fact that you are cynical. Spiritual truth will remain utter nonsense to you unless you believe in Christ thereby obtaining the fulling of the Holy Spirit. You most certainly can control your mind. You choose what to circulate in your stream of consciousness. You have a vacuum in your soul that must suck in some kind of doctrines. You choose what doctrines you circulate. The Christian's thoughts are all in relation to God. The atheist's thoughts are all in relation to self or the things of this world or what he can experience. How do you define justice? Well, to my knowledge, Islam does not define our separation from God and therefore does not need or provide a means of reconciliation. Islam creates a system of works by which Allah accepts a person. Allah's acceptance is seemingly arbitrary based on a person's works. If Allah accepts us based on our own merits, which are mediocrity at best and evil at worst, I want no part of Allah. Well, you are ignoring the role of God the Holy Spirit. No one can believe, but by His power. It is not merely up to "the mind they were born with" to know whether or not Christ is Lord. God the H.S. makes the truth of Christ knowable and confirmed to them no matter what kind of mind they have. So the answer is yes, God does turn away those who choose against him. A loving God, perhaps. A loving, righteous, and just God, no. Because in order to accept Jesus as savior, you must first recognize your need of salvation. In order to recognize your need of salvation, you must believe that there is a perfectly righteous God as our creator and you must want to be accepted by Him. If you cannot realize your state of sin in relation to Him, you cannot realize your need for a savior in order to be accepted by Him.Many people cannot realize their sin because they are relativists. If there is no God, there are no absolutes, there is no definite right and wrong, and sin is a subjective concept.If there is a God, there are absolutes. There is definite right and wrong. You cannot be both right and wrong at the same time. Either you are -R or +R. We are all -R, thus our need for a savior bringing reconciliation.In other words, God does not accept the arrogant into his kingdom. If we are too arrogant to recognize our status of -R, then we have no place in heaven. If we are humble enough to recognize it, then we are humble enough to accept Christ as savior to be redeemed.The entire Christian way of life is about humility. Accepting Christ as Lord and Savior is a pure act of humility. A complete acknowledgement of our -R and therefore a complete forgiveness for it.As long as we refuse to acknowledge our -R, we remain arrogant and unable to obtain salvation. That is what he wants us to realize in all this! WE cannot accomplish perfection. Its ALL about GOD. By refining our will and love for Him in imperfection, how much more will we give all glory and honor to him in perfection? We will never be tempted again to sin against him after being refined as such.