Justify damnation, dammit!

My bible also says "abusers of themselves" - so I guess I'm condemned. "Fornicators" aswell - so again I'm condemned.This is why I fail to judge others. What can I accuse a man of that I haven't been guilty of myself? I agree that we are saved by Christ Buz, and you kinda surprised me with that list, but nevertheless, I still say it is still to God to judge. If this list is what the bible says, then I will not argue with God. All I am saying is that I prefer to refrain from judgement, being a sinner myself, that I have no boasting.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." eh Mike.

Well - yeah, that's the golden ratio. Funny how we christians can conveniently forget these scriptures at times.

Oh, ok. Had you used that indicative, "were" instead of "are" I'd have gotten that right. Thanks.

No, it says "abusers of themselves with man"...... Big difference. There will be homosexuals and adulteres in heaven.......lots of them, who've repented and received the atonement via Christ. The woman at the well and Rahab the harlot are examples of adulters and fornicators.I don't judge either. I simply point out the scriptural texts for the purpose of the thread topic and for our understanding of that.

Thank you for your reply. He did not lie. The man asked what good things he must DO to get to heaven. Jesus said: why are you asking me what good things you must do? There is only One who is good.He has just told him that NO ONE is good by their own merits. He then tells him that he must obey the laws if he wants eternal life. It would be obvious to any objective person evaluating himself, that he has not kept these commandments, so any objective person would say, "I have not obeyed the law. How then can I enter heaven?"But the rich man says, "I have kept all of these."NOW is where Jesus' amazing teaching ability comes out. Rather than debate the man on whether or no he is righteous (arrogant people always think they are righteous). He new the origin of the man's arrogance: lust for money, and cuts straight to the chase.He says, give all your money away and you will STORE UP BLESSINGS for yourself in heaven. "THEN FOLLOW ME!"Following Jesus was the requirement Jesus gave him for eternal life. Jesus commanded him to give away his money because as long has he was occupied with money, he could not be occupied with Christ and follow him. He very well could have. The LOVE of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Money itself is not. If he gave away cash, he would store up blessings for himself in heaven as Jesus said. If he followed Jesus, then he would go to heaven. If he obeyed the law perfectly, then he would go to heaven, but as Jesus said in this very passage, "Only ONE is good. (referring to himself)" so obeying the law can not bring salvation. Jesus recieved judgement for the sins of ALL on the cross. Therefore we cannot be judged for our sins. They mean nothing. All we can be judged upon is our acceptance or rejection of Christ's work. If we accept Christ our name is written in the book of life. If we do not, our name is blotted out. At the last judgement, no one is sent to hell for sins, only because one's name is not found in the book of life. For the dilligent student studying humbly in the power of God the H.S. it works every time.

This seems like a completely superfical judgement to me. I have no idea what your basing this on. Tolerance? Jesus was quite intolerant sometimes. No matter what your personal opinions or likes and dislikes or judgements of people may be, God is the only perfect judge. The only thing that can satisfy God's righteousness and justice is Christ's work on the cross. This is evident throughout the ENTIRE Bible.Many who are first now will be least in heaven and many who are least now will be first in heaven. Yet as the Pharisess spat on Jesus while he hung on the cross, Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-23-2004 09:29 PM

Okay Buz. I know you haven't judged. And your wisdom hasn't fell on deaf ears. As yes, I do remember how Christ forgave.I agree totally that Christ is the way.I think we might be close to agreement than we realise.TTFN.

Yep... From the moment we are born, we begin dying.

A VERY good point.

Did you miss my reply to your OP in message 6?

I just can't pass this up. They have not yet been PROVEN anything, and I am working on the flood. And also just and righteous. God's love does not blot out his other characteristics. See my reply to the OP message 6. All of his outreach comes from his love, but his justice and righteousness must be satisfied for one to enter heaven, and this is only done through Christ. The ones in the temple were not even following their own law. They were like some kinda Roman Catholic Jews.What do you think Jesus' righteous wrath was based upon? I mean these poor money changers were just trying to make a living right? Shouldn't He have been a little more tolerant? Of course not!This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-23-2004 09:47 PM

Keep working on it Dawg. I still have faith you'll figure it out. You're intelegent and questing and that's all that's needed. Certainly for Christians. But he has also reached out to the Jews. Since that is at least two instances there is nothing to preclude him also reaching out to non-Christians through other means. The folk that made the mistake of believing that the Map was the Territory.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Whoops! Sorry, missed it. I'll edit this post with the reply.EDITED IN, THE ACTUAL REPLY: So, you don't think it's true that all these people I mentioned will go to hell? Good, we agree on something. But the Bible may not agree with us entirely. Agreed absolutely. But there are parts in the Bible(old testament) that strongly disagree with that. So you DO think non-Christians are going to hell? Okay. Please justify this morally. Agreed. But what does this have to do with justifying non believers going to hell? Stay on topic, please. Pussy foot, huh? I suggest you wax your prick some other way. It's not being a pussy to question God sending people to hell just because they don't believe in His truth; believing He would do this and pretending it's not wrong because you're afraid to defy something you can't defeat is being a pussy, a coward, and all things that succumb to fear. Okay, so you think the characterisic of wickedness would reside in him as well? I don't think so, but it would explain the whole sending good people to hell part. Okay, off topic again. Justify sending non-Christians to hell between your self-righteous banter, please. No, he'd be very generous. A large part of the world lives and dies without hearing the name 'Jesus Christ'. An even large part is just not Christian. Are they all doomed? Was Ghandi doomed? How about Mother Teresa? No, but it really says something if he creates a living consciousness knowing he'll send it to hell. That's toying with life. And you know this how? Especially with your time-bound viewpoint?
But it doesn't take endless knowledge to know that lots of non believers shouldn't be in hell. Okay, so you can't justify it. You clearly have shown no attempt to justify this needless hell-banishing other than saying 'It's what God does'. I don't care who does it anymore, I want justification. I won't be a servant of an invincible tyrant that cruelly toys with his creations.But, luckily I have my doubts as to whether or not God really does this.This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 07-23-2004 10:39 PM

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Oh, sort of like a pseudo-Bunyanish message? By pseudo, unlike Bunyan, you think the book is one big fraudlent hoax but has good lessons to learn from it's lies? No not meant as a personal attack atol. It's a statement clarifying the implication of your thread message that the Bible is bogus and intentionally fraudlent on the part of it's 40 or so alleged authors. I didn't say or mean you couldn't say what you want here. I said and meant you have no part in the Bible. That is, in it as foundational truth and historical value, etc. If it's just another book as you imply, how can you have a part in preaching it's promises of the future, claims or the past as to origins, history and things like heaven, judgement or hell? 1. How about a just God who knows a whole lot more about the whys and wherefors as to his doings, the big universal picture, if you will, who needs to do certain things to satisfy his justness, yet "is not willing that any should perish" to the point of sending his own son to satisfy his justness and save all who will receive the message.2. Have you considered that the makeup of man, unlike the animals includes the spiritual soul dimension which never dies and that likely since God himself is of that spiritual dimension a creature with whom he could communicate and fellowship with must also be eternal? Why not? I posted that to implicate the forbears of the ignorant and place the responsibility and blame on them rather than God as you do for their unbelief and ignorance of the message of salvation.We Biblical fundamentalists preach both heaven and hell because they're both in the book, the pearly gates on the one hand and the hot eternal brimstone on the other. Jesus, our Lord himself preached a firey hell to the certain rich man. That's why we're so preachy. We hate the idea of a burning eternal hell or any of you, our friends going there, but hey, the creator calls the shots, not us. No. I'm saying the proven book teaches it, so to shake my itty bitty fist at the Almighty would be stupidity on my part as well as destructive to my soul. Who are we to say what is just in a universe in which beings, both evil and good exist and about which we on tiny earth really haven't a clue except what the Bible teaches. That, my friend is not cowardice. It's the way of blessing on earth and heaven to gain in eternity. Now there, preacher. We've come around to the bad preaching! Why, pray tell, should you believe in the alleged god of a bogus book of lies and false claims atol? If the claimed historical accounts in it are bogus, what good can it possibly be other than literary niceties? 1. Thanks.2. What better or more reliable alternative is there for you? If you really believe in the God of the Bible, my advice is to let him worry about the condemned and do what's necessary according to the book from which he is known to insure your own salvation. I try to use the scientific approach. I don't understand the workings of God's justice system either, but then, if I did, I guess I'd be a god. I take the knowns in the Bible, including the fulfilled prophecies and so forth and I accept the other on that basis. I don't need to micro-analyze the Majesty of the universe or ever hope to fully understand all his workings. You're throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. Peace!