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Author Topic:   WHAT GOD THINKS OF FUNDAMENTALISM
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 136 of 222 (121647)
07-03-2004 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Cold Foreign Object
07-01-2004 9:43 PM


What the Bible really said.
Dear Willowtree;
quote:
I did not respond to your last post because it basically ignored every irrefutable point of mine in the post you responded to.
Irrefutable? Then why didn't you use those 'irrefutable' points and show me point by point how my interpretation is wrong? If you could have, you would have, you got nothing and you know it.
quote:
The righteous standards listed in the N.T. ARE ALWAYS listed in the context of the gospel - of which I just explained. This makes the conformity to these righteous standards the exclusive work of the Spirit in us, which is the product of faith and not works. You cannot even remotely understand this because you are obsessed with the N.T. version of Mosaic law and the pursuit of that fruit via willpower compliance. The point is that the conformity or the lack of conformity does not get a person the Spirit, the vehicle which does the changing - only faith does.
It sounds like you are saying that we are to leave any effort to change our behavior up to the spirit and we do nothing, like some sort of autopilot. Your thinking here is obviously based on taking a few scriptures out of context and ignoring many others that conflict with your non-biblical teaching. The spirit does create the fruitage of the spirit in us, if we allow it and follow it. If you don't cooperate with it, the spirit will leave you. Listen to what Paul taught about it. (Colossians 3:5-15) "Deaden, therefore, YOUR body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. [See, you need to do this, it is not automatic, it takes real effort.] On account of those things the wrath of God is coming. In those very things YOU, too, once walked when YOU used to live in them. But now really put them all away from YOU, wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of YOUR mouth. Do not be lying to one another. Strip off the old personality with its practices, and clothe yourselves with the new [personality], which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things and in all. Accordingly, as God's chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, mildness, and long-suffering. Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Even as Jehovah freely forgave YOU, so do YOU also. But, besides all these things, [clothe yourselves with] love, for it is a perfect bond of union. Also, let the peace of the Christ control in YOUR hearts," Paul would not be telling the Christians that they had to do this if the spirit would do it for them by itself. They had to work hard to change their behavior, the spirit would help them to make changes that without it would not even be possible, but they had to work with the spirit.
Failure to work with the spirit to put on the fruits of the spirit, would be grieving the spirit and could result in losing it.
(Ephesians 4:29-5:20) " Let a rotten saying not proceed out of YOUR mouth, but whatever saying is good for building up as the need may be, that it may impart what is favorable to the hearers. Also, do not be grieving God's holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom. Let all malicious bitterness and anger and wrath and screaming and abusive speech be taken away from YOU along with all badness. But become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave YOU. Therefore, become imitators of God, [See, we need to imitate God's good qualities by doing our best to live up to his righteous standards which is not easy. ] as beloved children, and go on walking in love, [ go on walking, effort.] just as the Christ also loved YOU and delivered himself up for YOU as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling odor. Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among YOU, just as it befits holy people; neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, things which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks. [Once again, Paul is saying we need to change our behavior, not that the spirit will do it for us.] For YOU know this, recognizing it for yourselves, that no fornicator or unclean person or greedy personwhich means being an idolaterhas any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God. Let no man deceive YOU with empty words, for because of the aforesaid things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partakers with them; Lord. Go on walking as children of light, for the fruitage of the light consists of every sort of goodness and righteousness and truth. Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; [how? by studying what God's requirements are.] and quit sharing with [them] in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving [them], [Repeatedly it is empathised that WE need to change our conduct, God's spirit will help us make the changes but it will not do it for us without us even thinking about it.] for the things that take place in secret by them it is shameful even to relate. Now all the things that are being reproved are made manifest by the light, for everything that is being made manifest is light. Wherefore he says: "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and the Christ will shine upon you." So keep strict watch that how YOU walk is not as unwise but as wise [persons], buying out the opportune time for yourselves, because the days are wicked. [We need to keep strict watch on our conduct and keep it in check.] On this account cease becoming unreasonable, but go on perceiving what the will of Jehovah is. Also, do not be getting drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but keep getting filled with spirit, speaking to yourselves with psalms and praises to God and spiritual songs, singing and accompanying yourselves with music in YOUR hearts to Jehovah, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ giving thanks always for all things to our God and Father."
If we are to "Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord;" we need to study and know what God's righteous standards are, and if we are to " Go on walking as children of light" we need to conform our lives to them. Just leaving ourselves on autopilot and expecting the spirit to keep us out of trouble is not what Paul preached and doesn't work. Look at the parts I highlighted in bold about not using abusive speech and obscene talk, clearly looking at your posts on this board you have a major problem in this area that leaving it up to the spirit to correct, has utterly failed to clean up your speech. Even the non Christians on this board can see how offensive and unchristian your words sometimes are, even banning you from posting on most of the board, if you are going to change you need to work at and pray for God's spirit to help you. So your potty mouth shows that your approach to displaying the fruitages of the spirit is very ineffectual in addition to being scripturally wrong.
quote:
The issue is HOW to be a doer of the word. James intended that the works of his precious Mosaic law be the doing. . . . James the Epistle writer is a perverted liar - it is crystal clear.
James did not promote following the old law code, the works he refers to are Christian works of doing God's will. Since you didn't reply to, understand or possibly even read my post on this, I will repost part of it.
James wasn't stating righteousness is gained by following the Mosaic law, that is a clear contradiction of what Christ taught and never would have been supported by the bothers present let alone by Paul who did support the decision reached. James wrote (James 1:3-6) "this tested quality of YOUR faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." that salvation was by enduring in faith. James makes the point in his book that faith without works is dead, and it is by exercising faith or doing works based on faith that we are saved. The works are not what saves, it is the faith that they are caused by, the works are a demonstration of faith, an exercising of faith.. If works are just works they do not save, but if they are an exercising of faith, they demonstrate our faith and prove our faith, which is what saves us. While an absence of works is an indication of a lack of faith. James point was that Christians must have both faith and works.
First off, the book of James was regarded as part of the inspired word of God and is found in the earliest records as being part of the Bible. Second the early Christians had the gift of miraculously knowing whether something was inspired or not and they viewed James as inspired. Paul wrote that all scripture was inspired, which would include the books of James. James also regarded what Paul had written as being scripture, which he hardly would have done if they were having a dispute over doctrines. James was also head of the Christians and was intrusted with the authority do decide issues as he did, now if he perverted things, why didn't God step in and correct it? The fact that Jehovah supported the decision is shown by the support of two of his prophets speaking his words in support. (Acts 15:32) "And Judas and Silas, since they themselves were also prophets, encouraged the brothers with many a discourse and strengthened them." So it was impossible for the James decision to be in conflict with Divine will. Paul didn't disagree with James, he even carried the decree to the congregations and taught it, which he would not have done if he disagreed with it otherwise he would be a hypocrite.
In Galatians 5:19-21 Paul lists the same things James did and states "that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom." To which you stated "The fruit of the indwelt Spirit miraculously makes you conform. This Spirit only comes in by faith and continues to operate only by faith, which said thing called "faith" has nothing to do with works," But you ignore the fact that Paul addressed those words to the congregation "did forewarn YOU" that if they practiced those things they would not inherit the kingdom. Paul warned the Christians of the danger of sinning, they were still imperfect and it took continuous effort to stay out of trouble. Even Paul had to be very careful not to let himself slip into wrong conduct. (1 Corinthians 9:25-27) "Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. . . . but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow." Which was just what James had stated, failure to obey the necessary things would result in loss of divine favor. Paul stressed in his letters that we have to not practice sin if are to be saved.
(Hebrews 5:9) "he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,"
Which is what Jesus taught, the whole bases of Christianity. (John 3:16-21) "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. . . . Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God."
The exercising of faith is doing works, and our works are judged as to whether they are in harmony with God. Our works don't save us, they are only the manifestation of our faith. If we were to do works without faith, it is of no value. Yet if our faith doesn't move us to do works, such as living by righteousness, we really do not have a real faith to save us. That is what James was talking about and why Paul had no disagreement with him. It really is such a simple point, clear as crystal, if we really believe we will act on what we learn. If we don't act, we have not really put faith in what we have heard.
quote:
Hebrews 4:2-11 These verses clearly teach that the belief or faith spoken of, which the children of Israel did not have, is a faith COMPARED TO THE SEVENTH DAY WHEN GOD RESTED FROM HIS CREATION WORKS. This irrefutably proves that the gospel faith that Paul teaches through out the N.T. is not the "works" caricature of James. Belief is directly compared to "sabbath rest", which is immediatley shown to be what God did on the seventh day. This means we are to do as God and "cease from our own works as God did from His." This clearly explains the gospel to have nothing to do with works. We are to work the work of faith (already shown to be sabbath resting/seventh day) as the ONLY way to escape from committing the same mistake as the children of Israel at Kadesh Barnea.
You are misinterpreting Hebrews 4:2-11, the ones who didn't get to enter God's rest was the disobedient generation that was not allowed to enter into the promised land and instead died off in the 40 years in the wilderness. See for yourself, look back a few verses and look, Paul is talking about that generation, not the Jews as a whole.
(Hebrews 3:8-11) "do not harden YOUR hearts as on the occasion of causing bitter anger, as in the day of making the test in the wilderness, in which YOUR forefathers made a test of me with a trial, and yet they had seen my works for forty years. For this reason I became disgusted with this generation and said, 'They always go astray in their hearts, and they themselves have not come to know my ways.' So I swore in my anger, 'They shall not enter into my rest.'" Those who did not get to enter God's rest was just that one generation and could have if they had been obedient. The next generation born in those 40 years did get to enter the promised land and did get to enter God's rest in a limited sense.
(Joshua 21:44) "Furthermore, Jehovah gave them rest all around, according to everything that he had sworn to their forefathers," Christians have the opportunity of fully entering God's rest, but that is only possible under Christ's millennial reign, till them we only enter it partly by as you said deceasing from works of the flesh. (Hebrews 4:11) "Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest," Even for Christians the full enjoyment of God's rest day is yet in future.
Your doctrine is not supported by scripture.
Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-01-2004 9:43 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-07-2004 12:48 AM wmscott has replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 137 of 222 (122537)
07-07-2004 12:12 AM


Thread moved here from the Faith and Belief forum.

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 138 of 222 (122546)
07-07-2004 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by wmscott
07-03-2004 5:22 PM


Thanks Asgara
It sounds like you are saying that we are to leave any effort to change our behavior up to the spirit and we do nothing
Thats right.
The ONLY thing we do is keep our part of the New Covenant which is the gospel/good news ! The good news is that God will accept FAITH in place of the adherence to righteous standard/Mosaic laws.
Anderson:
What is the gospel ?
It is the new way to relate to God via Jesus Christ.
That new way is the way of faith.
This is WHY the N.T. is called the NEW TESTAMENT.
Listen to what Paul taught about it. (Colossians 3:5-15) "Deaden, therefore, YOUR body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. [See, you need to do this, it is not automatic, it takes real effort.]
This Colossians text was written IN THE CONTEXT of the GOSPEL, which means the deliverance from these sins will be the POWER of the indwelt Spirit in us which ONLY operates IF we are focusing our effort and energy into acts of faith.
The essence of christianity is the power of the indwelt Spirit which miraculously changes us. YOUR lopsided focus on willpower compliance NEVER progresses in gospel faith which enables the Spirit to propel the believer into compliance via a miracle.
I see you cannot even remotely understand the heresy of James. This in itself is evidence of your fundementalism.
Every N.T. attempt to make us understand the gospel is immediately negated by pursuing the goal of righteous standard compliance apart from faith (the way we started the journey). You seem to have zero ability to understand this difference even though Paul takes various hacks at explaining it in the epistles.
The perverted fundie mind is so accustomed to the traditions of code of conduct that the gospel/way of faith gets the shaft. The issue is HOW the righteous code of conduct is to be complied with. IF IT IS NOT ACHIEVED VIA THE WAY OF FAITH THEN THE WILLPOWER COMPLIANCE IS WORKS WHICH THE BIBLE CONDEMNS TO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by wmscott, posted 07-03-2004 5:22 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by wmscott, posted 07-07-2004 8:40 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 139 of 222 (122816)
07-07-2004 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Cold Foreign Object
07-07-2004 12:48 AM


Willowtree are you claiming you have achieved perfection?
Dear Willowtree;
Now if I follow what you are saying, because you believe you have the holy spirit, the spirit miraculously prevents you from sinning. You are probably basing this on; (Galatians 5:16) "Keep walking by spirit and YOU will carry out no fleshly desire at all." But notice that the second part is dependant on the first part, "keep walking," if we work to over come fleshly desires the spirit will help us to succeed. If we don't try, the spirit isn't going to help us.
I notice you didn't reply to one of the points I made earlier.-- Even Paul had to be very careful not to let himself slip into wrong conduct. (1 Corinthians 9:25-27) "Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. . . . but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow."
So answer me this; if Paul believed as you do, why did he stress exercising self-control and having to 'pummel' his body so that he would not sin? According to you it should have been automatic for him if he exercised faith, so didn't Paul have faith?
Also please explain why Peter wrote about using all earnest effort to supply things like self-control if he believed what you do. (2 Peter 1:5-9) "Yes, for this very reason, by YOUR contributing in response all earnest effort, supply to YOUR faith virtue, to [YOUR] virtue knowledge, to [YOUR] knowledge self-control, to [YOUR] self-control endurance, to [YOUR] endurance godly devotion, to [YOUR] godly devotion brotherly affection, to [YOUR] brotherly affection love. For if these things exist in YOU and overflow, they will prevent YOU from being either inactive or unfruitful regarding the accurate knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For if these things are not present in anyone, he is blind, shutting his eyes [to the light],"
Your, no effort all faith, approach to putting on the fruits of the spirit is not what the Bible teaches and having exchanged e-mail with you, it certainly isn't working in your case. To quote your e-mail. "You are a brown nose wimp - go stand on some corner holding up a silly magazine - real effetive way to spread the gospel. . . . this email response and your outrage at alleged bad language exposes you to be a a self righteous atheist loving moron. And you THINK Percy respects you - they laugh at you - you moron." Obviously these are not the words of someone who follows the one who said, (Luke 6:27-28) "Continue to love YOUR enemies, to do good to those hating YOU, to bless those cursing YOU, to pray for those who are insulting YOU." That is the difference between us, while you curse me, I pray for you.
I was also wondering if you think that if the holy spirit prevents you from sinning, that you no longer sin, or in other words you think you have achieved moral perfection?
(1 John 1:8) "If we make the statement: "We have no sin," we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us."
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-07-2004 12:48 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-13-2004 12:39 AM wmscott has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 140 of 222 (124156)
07-13-2004 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by wmscott
07-07-2004 8:40 PM


Now if I follow what you are saying, because you believe you have the holy spirit, the spirit miraculously prevents you from sinning.
Precisely.
That Spirit in us WILL change us and free us from the drag of sin IF we focus all of our efforts into acts of faith - gospel faith.
For you to not comprehend this means you have never experienced progress in the Spirit, which doesn't surprise me because you obviously do not understand the gospel/NEW testament.
Anderson:
Christianity is about miracle change and freedom from our sinful natures. Christianity begins with a miracle - the Resurrection of Christ.
The same Spirit which raised up Christ is promised to dwell in us IF we fulfill the one and only term of the New Covenant: Faith.
We do not become perfect - we become more perfect. We will always be dual natured - a hybrid of flesh and Spirit. BUT the Spirit will DISPLACE our Adamic nature IF we commit to a life of faith.
So answer me this; if Paul believed as you do, why did he stress exercising self-control and having to 'pummel' his body so that he would not sin? According to you it should have been automatic for him if he exercised faith, so didn't Paul have faith?
This excerpt of Paul, which you have recounted in the blue box MUST be understood IN CONTEXT.
The context is the New Testament.
The N.T. is the Gospel.
The Gospel is the new way to relate to God.
The new way is the way of faith apart from the works of the Law.
The self control Paul is speaking about is a fruit of the indwelt Spirit. Paul is saying that he will not let his old nature be the boss. He will perform "self control" as an act of faith, believing that the Spirit will honor his committment and keep changing him.
INTENT is all important.
IF we perform law or willpower compliance not as an act of faith THEN we are engaging in age-old works of the law.
To quote your e-mail. "You are a brown nose wimp - go stand on some corner holding up a silly magazine - real effetive way to spread the gospel. . . . this email response and your outrage at alleged bad language exposes you to be a a self righteous atheist loving moron. And you THINK Percy respects you - they laugh at you - you moron." Obviously these are not the words of someone who follows the one who said, (Luke 6:27-28) "Continue to love YOUR enemies, to do good to those hating YOU, to bless those cursing YOU, to pray for those who are insulting YOU." That is the difference between us, while you curse me, I pray for you.
You are dishonest to say you are praying for me.
Your quoting of Luke is Sermon on the Mount precepts which ONLY Jesus could fulfill. Nobody can love their enemies except Christ. This is why He said it. Jesus said these things to convince us that we CANNOT do them from the heart as required. He said them as a two option choice of paths to follow:
1) Impossible standard of Divine Law.
2) Have faith in Christ/gospel of the N.T.
This is our choice as taught by Jesus Himself.
Imposssible standards of law OR "believe in Him".
God crucified the Law Incarnate/Jesus Christ.
NOW the only other option is to "believe in Him"/faith to faith (Romans 1:17)
All of the Apostles received life changing power from the indwelt Spirit on the day of Pentecost. This miracle change is the product of faith. It is the forever pattern of relationship with God.
God will change us miraculously IF we continue in the "apostles doctine" which is the doctrine of faith.
Rhetorically speaking, why would God repeat the Old way of works of law in the New Tetsament ?
He didn't.
The New is the New because of the good news - the way of faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by wmscott, posted 07-07-2004 8:40 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by wmscott, posted 07-13-2004 6:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 141 of 222 (124280)
07-13-2004 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Cold Foreign Object
07-13-2004 12:39 AM


True Christians show love for their enemies
Dear Willowtree;
quote:
That Spirit in us WILL change us and free us from the drag of sin IF we focus all of our efforts into acts of faith - gospel faith. For you to not comprehend this means you have never experienced progress in the Spirit, which doesn't surprise me because you obviously do not understand the gospel/NEW testament.
Well then, please focus all your effort. I know what the Bible teaches and I follow that.
quote:
We do not become perfect - we become more perfect. We will always be dual natured - a hybrid of flesh and Spirit. BUT the Spirit will DISPLACE our Adamic nature IF we commit to a life of faith.
For Christians perfection is a goal that we should be striving hard to reach, do our utmost to over come the works of the flesh and pursue spiritual things. (Philippians 3:12-17) "Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pursuing to see if I may also lay hold on that for which I have also been laid hold on by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having laid hold on [it]; but there is one thing about it: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, I am pursuing down toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus. Let us, then, as many of us as are mature, be of this mental attitude; and if YOU are mentally inclined otherwise in any respect, God will reveal the above [attitude] to YOU. At any rate, to what extent we have made progress, let us go on walking orderly in this same routine. Unitedly become imitators of me, brothers, and keep YOUR eye on those who are walking in a way that accords with the example YOU have in us." Notice that Paul was pursuing perfection, stretching toward the goal and urging the congregation to follow the example he set. Paul was telling them they needed to work to pursue spiritual things and they had to exercise self control, will power to leave the fleshly things behind. The holy spirit would aid them, but they had to supply the effort.
quote:
The self control Paul is speaking about is a fruit of the indwelt Spirit. Paul is saying that he will not let his old nature be the boss. He will perform "self control" as an act of faith, believing that the Spirit will honor his committment and keep changing him. INTENT is all important. IF we perform law or willpower compliance not as an act of faith THEN we are engaging in age-old works of the law.
If we agree that Christians need to exercise self control and work hard to follow the example Christ set while asking in faith for the holy spirit help them to do so, then we are in agreement. My point is we need to work hard at over coming the desires of the flesh, but it is the holy spirit that will cause our efforts to succeed. Peter wrote about using all earnest effort to supply things like self-control so it is clear that while the spirit enables us to succeed, we need to really try and God will bless our efforts. (2 Peter 1:5-9) "Yes, for this very reason, by YOUR contributing in response all earnest effort, supply to YOUR faith virtue, to [YOUR] virtue knowledge, to [YOUR] knowledge self-control, to [YOUR] self-control endurance, to [YOUR] endurance godly devotion, to [YOUR] godly devotion brotherly affection, to [YOUR] brotherly affection love. For if these things exist in YOU and overflow, they will prevent YOU from being either inactive or unfruitful regarding the accurate knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For if these things are not present in anyone, he is blind, shutting his eyes [to the light],"
quote:
You are dishonest to say you are praying for me. Your quoting of Luke is Sermon on the Mount precepts which ONLY Jesus could fulfill. Nobody can love their enemies except Christ.
No I actually do pray for you, I pray that God will open your heart and your eyes so that you may see the truth and be set free from the non biblical doctrines that you have been enslaved with. Jesus' sermon on the mound contained a number of commands such as loving your enemies which were addressed, (Luke 6:27) "But I say to YOU who are listening," so all who would follow Christ are expected to do their best to follow what Jesus said. If loving your enemies is not part of your religion, you are being misled, it is part of what Jesus taught his followers to do. We make a practice of showing love to our enemies, sometimes it even bears fruit and they become followers of Jesus Christ.
Works are important if we are to please God, he judges us and rewards us in accord with the works we have done in his name. While such works must be done in faith with the right motives to be of any value, God values our efforts.
(Romans 2:6-7) "And he will render to each one according to his works: everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good;"
(Matthew 16:27) "he will recompense each one according to his behavior."
(1 Peter 1:17) "the Father who judges impartially according to each one's work,"
So zero effort could mean zero reward, remember the slave who buried the talent? Christians are to work hard in doing good works and in putting on the fruitage of the spirit.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-13-2004 12:39 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 142 of 222 (126362)
07-21-2004 8:03 PM


The Only Term of the New Covenant : the Gospel
Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
This verse IS the Abrahamic Covenant of the righteousness of faith.
God, in exchange for faith, will credit righteousness.
Notice that it says nothing about "works" or Mosaic law or any crafty synonym like "righteous standard"
Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Paul the Apostle, who is the chosen mouthpiece for God - chosen by Jesus Himself in Acts 9, under the inspiration of the Spirit, in the context of the New Testament, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ, quotes the Abrahamic covenant of the righteousness via faith - two separate times in the books of Galatians and Romans.
Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews contain the full meaning of the New Testament and its unfolding out of the Old Testament.
Jesus picked the brightest hebrew scholar of his time - Paul of Tarsus, to explain the New Covenant.
Paul seizes what God told Abraham at least 430 years prior to the existence of Mosaic law, and says this covenant is the gospel - the good news that God will accept FAITH directed at a promise that He has uttered and credit righteousness for doing so.
Galatians Chp.3
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was FOUR HUNDRED AND THIRTY YEARS after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
How can anyone misconstrue what Paul is saying here in Galatians ?
The Abrahamic covenant, which preceded Moses, cannot be voided by Sinai.
THEN WHY DID GOD GIVE MOSAIC LAW ?
Galatians 3:19, 24:
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Paul plainly tells us that Mosaic law was ADDED because sin was already a reality since Adam and Eve's fall. The law is intended to CONVICT us of our guilt and make us flee to our deliverer: Jesus Christ.
Mosaic law is a "schoolmaster": Which has the connotation of a harsh taskmaster that cruelly teaches us that we cannot live up to its standard. That is its ONLY purpose - to bring us to Christ and get delivered from its unbending terror.
The law is good but it cannot help us because it is an inflexible standard of conduct that requires death if it is not adhered to.
Paul also adds the MAJOR insult, informing us, that after thousands of years, the law was actually delivered to Moses BY ANGELS and not God Himself.
God didn't think the law was worthy of His personal attention so He informs us via Paul that angels actually gave it to Moses, unlike the Abrahamic covenant, which God Himself made with Abraham.
Now the Fundementalist mind would CANCEL all this out by giving lopsided attention to the lists of sins/(righteous standard as they call it) that are contained in the New Testament.
These lists of sins/righteous standards are LISTED IN THE CONTEXT OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.
This means they are the fruit of the Spirit in us, which said indwelt Spirit ONLY resides in us to make us comply miraculously IF we are directing all of our energy and focus INTO the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness by faith.
If we do as the Fundies would - they pursue the righteous standards on their own as proof of their so called conversion - thus this disciplined compliance via willpower is just age old law keeping and NOT the term of faith in the Abrahamic covenant.
I am not arguing that we can sin or remain in sin.
I am explaining the Gospel/way of faith/Abrahamic covenant WHICH is the God ordained method to get delivered from sin, which said method has been totally corrupted by Fundementalists.
Here is the ONLY term/CHOICE of the New Testament/Covenant as evidenced from scripture:
The impossible requirements of the Sermon on the Mount:
Matthew 5
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment....shall be in danger of hell fire.
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 6
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 7
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Notice in the last verse there that works do not save.
The above blue boxed verses is an impossible Divine standard - it is intended to only be kept by the Law Incarnate: Jesus Christ. It is intended to convict and MAKE YOU SEE YOUR NEED FOR THE ONLY OTHER OPTION CALLED THE GOSPEL/WAY OF FAITH TO RELATE TO GOD/CHRIST.
That only other option is the Abrahamic covenant of faith - and here it is - right from Matthew.
Matthew 8
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great FAITH, no, not in Israel.
And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.
And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little FAITH? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
Matthew 9
And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their FAITH said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy FAITH hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your FAITH be it unto you.
Matthew 15
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy FAITH: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Matthew 21
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have FAITH, and doubt not
This is just from Matthew, add the other three gospels and the evidence is voluminous: Faith is the only term of the New Covenant.
In the gospel of John, Jesus repeatedly says "he who BELIEVES in Him"
This is the choice: Faith or law and its penalty of death.
The New covenant is the gospel which means "good news" and the good news is the release from the requirements of law to please God !
The choice is the impossible standard of law as defined by Jesus OR the way of faith.
IF we pursue faith then we are under grace and the law and its requirements are void to us.
Fundementalist coruption ignores all of this and pursues their version of the righteous standard apart from the gospel and misrepresent Christ.
Faith and only faith gets the Spirit which miraculously changes us.

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by wmscott, posted 07-27-2004 6:39 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 143 of 222 (128179)
07-27-2004 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Cold Foreign Object
07-21-2004 8:03 PM


The Only Term of the New Covenant : Love
Dear Willowtree;
I see that you failed to respond to any of the scriptures I cited to show that faith needs to produce works, I gather that you are unable to do so, which is telling, and I see that you have taken some scriptures out of context in an attempt to support your argument. You are basing your argument now on Abraham being saved by faith and not by works, referring to what Paul wrote on the subject. You are taking Paul out of context, what Paul was teaching about Abraham was that he was not saved by preforming works of the law since the law wasn't even given for another 430 years, Paul's point was that following the law code did not save anyone. He was not saying faith didn't need to produce any works. Look at what Paul wrote at Romans 4:3 "Abraham exercised faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Exercising faith is acting on that faith, with is doing a work of faith. Now look closely at what he wrote here-
(Galatians 3:5-9) "He, therefore, who supplies YOU the spirit and performs powerful works among YOU, does he do it owing to works of law or owing to a hearing by faith? Just as Abraham "put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Surely YOU know that those who adhere to faith are the ones who are sons of Abraham. Now the Scripture, seeing in advance that God would declare people of the nations righteous due to faith, declared the good news beforehand to Abraham, namely: "By means of you all the nations will be blessed." Consequently those who adhere to faith are being blessed together with faithful Abraham."
Notice in the first verse, Paul is talking about God giving them the holy spirit which enable them to perform powerful works, works that are not according to works of the law but are due to faith. Do you see? Paul here is talking about two different sorts of works, works of the law and works of faith. Notice also that those who "adhere to faith" are the true sons of Abraham, adhering to the faith means following a code of conduct not based on the law but is based on the law of love. If we make no effort to adhere to the faith, we are not sons of Abraham and are not pleasing God. Jesus taught that we need to produce good works, you twisted the scripture in Matthew, here it is in the proper context. Notice that those who claimed to do works and are condemned are condemned because they false prophets in sheep's coverings that mislead people and may appear to be righteous, but are really wicked and rejected by God and Christ, and we can spot these by their bad works.
(Matthew 7:15-27) "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]. "Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness. "Therefore everyone that hears these sayings of mine and does them will be likened to a discreet man, who built his house upon the rock-mass. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded upon the rock-mass. Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be likened to a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house and it caved in, and its collapse was great."
Those condemned here are workers of lawlessness, they do wicked deeds and are not living by the law of the Christ. Notice that the man who hears the words of Christ and "does them" is saved, while the man who follows your line of thought of only hearing and not taking any actions suffers loss. The point here is that merely claiming to follow Christ is not enough, and we need actively follow Christ and not just passively listen.
quote:
The impossible requirements of the Sermon on the Mount:
your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger
:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Swear not at all;
That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
You are refusing to follow Jesus Christ, the Sermon on the Mount is the core of what it is to be a christian. The scribes and Pharisees were hypocrites, we certainly have to do better than that to please God. I can see how you have a big problem with the not swearing at all part, but it is not impossible, you don't see me cussing you out, so it certainly isn't impossible. But these commands are the standards we should be trying to reach, if we have faith and do our utmost the holy spirit will aid us in working closer to achieving righteousness in God's eye's. With man these things may be impossible, but with God all things are possible, now that is what real faith is. Real faith has POWER to change people and to do things, a false faith is just self delusion. If your faith doesn't move you to do good works or change you, as James stated it is dead. You keep talking about the context of the gospels, yet you miss the fact that when they talk about faith, they are always talking about the living kind of faith that produces works. That is what real faith is all about, it is a very powerful force, any thing less is nothing.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
(John 3:36) "He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-21-2004 8:03 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-27-2004 7:49 PM wmscott has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 144 of 222 (128197)
07-27-2004 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by wmscott
07-27-2004 6:39 PM


Re: The Only Term of the New Covenant
You are refusing to follow Jesus Christ, the Sermon on the Mount is the core of what it is to be a christian
Finally, after 143 pages of debate you admit what I have said from page 1:
Works is the way you follow Christ.
But that word "works" is so well defined is scripture to NOT SAVE that you substitute a synonym called "righteous standard".
You really do not believe that works do not save or maintain your standing with God.
It doesn't matter how clear the Bible says it your fundie mind cannot fathom what I or the N.T. is saying.
The ONLY purpose of the Sermon on the Mount was to CONVICT and SHOW you that it is a Divine standard that cannot be lived.
Jesus clearly established that the VERY THOUGHT counted as if you did the sin in God's eyes - but you obviously do not believe what Christ said.
Jesus preached the Sermon to frighten us into doing the ONE thing we can do: HAVE FAITH.
The Sermon on the Mount is a standard that only Jesus could do. It was not intended as a goal of "will worship".
Your twisted understanding has everyone pursuing the precepts to the best of their ability - pure age-old O.T. works.
The reason WHY the New Testament is called the NEW Testament is because God will release us from the works of the law IF we relate to Him strictly by faith. When faith is practiced His Spirit can indwell and cause us to walk in newness of life via miracle AND THEN the righteous precepts of the Sermon on the Mount will be accomplished in us via miracle.
You just don't understand the gospel - it means "good news" the good news which I just describe.
All you can do is focus on the law of Moses and its presence in the N.T. and pursue it like the generations beforehand.
I can tell you and Buzsaw have not a clue about what I am talking about as the scripture says in Isaiah and repeated in the N.T. that God will blind His people with His word so that they will not understand as a penalty for voiding His word via their traditions.
Your Mosaic traditions cancel the gospel of faith alone and the inability to understand what I am talking about proves the Isaiah curse is on you just like it came upon that generation in Isaiah's day who scoffed at such an idea until the Assyrians came stripped and them naked, fastened fish hooks in their lips, connected them to all one string and marched them off into bondage.
That is the context when Jesus repeats that Isaiah curse of "seeing and hearing but not understanding".
You hear the word of God and you THINK you understand but in reality you do not. The fact that you defend works proves you are a deceived fundie who just doesn't get it.
Anderson:
You totally voided everything I argued in the preceding post. Faith and faith alone is the only term on our side of the New Covenant.
How do you love an invisible God ?
If you love God then you want to please Him.
Hebrews 11:6 says ONLY FAITH pleases God.
Therefore, if you are acting in faith - you are at the same time LOVING God and fulfilling the First Commandment.
You just do not believe that the Bible means what it says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by wmscott, posted 07-27-2004 6:39 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by wmscott, posted 07-28-2004 10:40 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 145 of 222 (128495)
07-28-2004 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Cold Foreign Object
07-27-2004 7:49 PM


faith without any need of doing the works of faith, is a hypocrite
Dear Willowtree;
quote:
You totally voided everything I argued in the preceding post.
Yes I certainty did, but I suspect you meant to use the word "avoided". Your post was rather long and I agree with you on the purpose of the Mosaic law, as I have stated several times before, so I saw no point in talking about things you should already know that I agree with you on. Actually you are the one who has been avoiding certain scriptures cited in earlier posts.
quote:
You just do not believe that the Bible means what it says.
If that was so, then why would I bother quoting it? You really need to think things through more before you post.
It is very apparent that you are hung up on a word, and that word is faith, shockingly you don't even understand the full biblical meaning of the word. The Bible uses words differently at times then they are used commonly, in scripture words sometimes have special or added meanings. Look at the word love, in the NT there are four Greek words used that each describe a specific type of love. The word love is used with a much greater depth of meaning then what you would find by looking it up in a dictionary. I hope you will agree with me that a love that doesn't move one to act in harmony with it, isn't real. That a person may say he loves God, but his conduct reveals whether he really does or not. It is the same way with the biblical use of the word "faith" Paul defined it in scripture, he stated that. (Hebrews 11:1) "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." This is the biblical definition of the word faith, and that definition of the word faith states that it includes or requires works as demonstration of one's faith. "elegkhos," the Greek word translated here as "evident demonstration," means to present evidence that proves something. The evidence of our faith is our works of faith. By our doing works of faith, we demonstrate our faith, if not, we do not have the biblical definition of faith. You seen to be using a definition of faith that merely equals "belief" which is not the full meaning of the word faith in the Bible. In scripture, faith is much more than belief, justing knowing about God is not enough. (James 2:19) "You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder." I know you don't think James is inspired, yet you will have to agree with his point here, the demons certainly believe in God and Jesus and it doesn't save them. So too for us, merely believing is not going to save us, we have to have faith that is demonstrated or exercised. Our actions have to be in harmony with our words, or else we would be hypocrites and condemned. (Matthew 24:51) "and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites." God hates hypocrites, and that is what you would be if you say you are a Christian and yet do not try to live as one. If your church is teaching all you need is faith without any need of doing the works of faith, it is a hypocrite factory. For how can you say one thing and do another without being a hypocrite?
The scriptures are clear on the point that it take effort to be a Christian and stay one. It is not a case of just having 'faith' or believing and the spirit does everything for you.
(Hebrews 12:1-2) "let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus."
(Jude 3) "I found it necessary to write YOU to exhort YOU to put up a hard fight for the faith"
(Galatians 5:19-21) "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom."
(Philippians 2:12) "keep working out YOUR own salvation with fear and trembling;"
If we practice the works of the flesh instead of the fruits of the spirit, we will not inherit the kingdom. It is by holding to the faith and being careful to maintain fine conduct and doing God's will that we work out our salvation, we do so with the fear that if we fail to do so, we will suffer lost.
Also if you believe that it is not necessary to maintain fine conduct, you could be willfully practicing sin, which has dire consequences.
(Hebrews 10:26) "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,"
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-27-2004 7:49 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by AdminDawg, posted 07-30-2004 12:40 AM wmscott has not replied
 Message 147 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-30-2004 12:42 AM wmscott has replied
 Message 174 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-08-2004 8:53 PM wmscott has replied

  
AdminDawg
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 222 (128859)
07-30-2004 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by wmscott
07-28-2004 10:40 PM


Re: faith without any need of doing the works of faith, is a hypocrite
ETA: deleted...
This message has been edited by AdminDawg, 07-29-2004 11:41 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by wmscott, posted 07-28-2004 10:40 PM wmscott has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 147 of 222 (128860)
07-30-2004 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by wmscott
07-28-2004 10:40 PM


Re: faith without any need of doing the works of faith, is a hypocrite
Eh herm... back to my old self again.
Thought I'd interject my understanding of salvation here.
A person that has faith in Christ, even a mustard seed's worth at only one point in life, will go to heaven. There are passages such as that in Ephesians that talk about the point of belief in the past tense as being the point at which we are sealed with God the Holy Spirit. I am fairly certain that once a person has believed, nothing they do can keep them from heaven. As you pointed out:
As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom."
(Philippians 2:12) "keep working out YOUR own salvation with fear and trembling;"
If we practice the works of the flesh instead of the fruits of the spirit, we will not inherit the kingdom. It is by holding to the faith and being careful to maintain fine conduct and doing God's will that we work out our salvation, we do so with the fear that if we fail to do so, we will suffer lost.
There is a present action "keep working out your salvation". By continuing to work out our salvation through obediance of God's Word, we will store treasures for ourselves in heaven. The future tense, "will be saved", refers to the time when we will enter our resurrection body and recieve our inheiritance.
So there is past tense: point of first belief; present progressive tense: producing fruit of the spirit; future tense: recieving future blessings. I think this is an important distinction to make when reading passages on salvation.
If we abandon God and his Word we will not inherit our future blessings of the kingdom of heaven, but we will be there. I think when it says we will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, this is like letting someone into your house, but not letting them touch or have anything that is there. Those who do not produce the fruit of the spirit are the "loser" believers who have no inheritance.
When we come to the judgment seat at the end of history everything will be brought to account. All the human good and sin is burned. It doesn't matter anymore since Christ has already been judged for it. All that matters is: a) did you believe in Christ?, b) what did you do with the spiritual life he gave you (in other words what Spiritual fruit did you produce)? The extent to which a believer exectues the spiritual life is the extent to which a person recieves reward in the end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by wmscott, posted 07-28-2004 10:40 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by wmscott, posted 07-30-2004 5:42 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 148 of 222 (129022)
07-30-2004 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Hangdawg13
07-30-2004 12:42 AM


The Second Death
Dear Hangdawg13;
I have been having a rather long and so far fruitless discussion with Willowtree over the issue of faith and works, our difference is on whether a person needs to produce works or make an effort to live by Bible standards. Willowtree's position is that you don't need to do either, while I have been citing scripture to show that is not what the Bible teaches. While you and I no doubt differ on points, I doubt you wish to support the extreme view Willowtree has taken. Since the relationship between works and faith is not clearly understood by most today, it will probably take a number of exchanges just to determine accurately what your position on the matter is.
My position on what is required for salvation is very nicely outlined under the subject "What Does God Require of Us?" at this link. http://www.watchtower.org/library/rq/index.htm Which got Willowtree all worked up because he believes that belief is the only requirement.
One the subject of "sealing" you referred to (Ephesians 4:30) "Also, do not be grieving God's holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed" notice the warning to those who were already sealed not to grieve the holy spirit. The reason for this warning is explained in Hebrews.
(Hebrews 6:4-6) "For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance,"
So even those who have been sealed can fall away. I should also mention that there are two types of sealing mention in the Bible, the first mentioned above is the first sealing which is provisional on remaining faithful, the second sealing is final, given when a person dies faithful or has passed enough tests of fire that their faithfulness has been verified beyond any doubt showing that they will always be faithful.
As to what happens to those who do not inherit the kingdom. (Revelation 21:7-8) "Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death." If you die you have the hope of the resurrection, but if you do not have that hope, you have died twice and are doomed to sleep forever in death. Death is simply not being alive, it is the opposite of existence, it is nonexistence and for those without hope of a resurrection, it is oblivion. Many believe in mythical stories about death, but in the Bible those who are dead are said to "sleeping" and the only way out of death is a resurrection based on the ransoming power of Jesus Christ's shed blood. Which is why Christ is the only hope of salvation.
Death and "the second death" (also called the lake of fire), are also described in Revelation chapter 20. (Revelation 20:14-15) "And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire." The reason death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, is because this is after the resurrection has occurred and they are empty, here at this point there is no one still sleeping in the first death, so they don't exist any more since they are not needed. Those who are alive at this time will no longer die, and if any were to be unfaithful after achieving perfection, would be guilty of willful sin and would die the second death. Since you can not throw the concept of death in a literal lake, it also shows the symbolism used here in Revelation, a book told in signs, and that the description of the lake of fire is just symbolism of eternal destruction and is not a literal description of a mythical burning hell as many have mistakenly thought.
So to try to keep this discussion of faith/works on topic, Willowtree would have you believe that you need not worry about sinning since the spirit will take care of it, while in the Bible we see that if we fail to serve God with our whole heart and our whole mind and whole soul, we would risk being destroyed forever. So when confronted with the temptation to do wrong, we need to pray and try with all our strength to resist. If we make no effort to resist, we could even be viewed by God as sinning willfully which is worthy of the second death. God is the judge, but those who have committed sins that are beyond forgiveness have no desire to repent since they have made a willful choice, so even if some were to feel that they are guilty of unforgivable sins, they probably haven't if they feel remorse since those who are willful feel no remorse. While we will all sin many times, as long as we do our best not to and are repentant, we will be forgiven. But not to even make the effort to live by Bible standards is unwise in the extreme.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-30-2004 12:42 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-01-2004 2:05 AM wmscott has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 149 of 222 (129233)
08-01-2004 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by wmscott
07-30-2004 5:42 PM


Re: The Second Death
Well, you make some good points.
I tend to lean towards believing that once a person has believed in Christ, nothing can take away his salvation, not even his own subsequent disbelief. This is what I have gathered through my study. There are a few more ambiguous passages that seem to say otherwise, however there are some very clear ones that I think support my position.
However, you may well be right. I'm not 100% sure I've got it right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by wmscott, posted 07-30-2004 5:42 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by wmscott, posted 08-02-2004 6:37 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 150 of 222 (129852)
08-02-2004 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Hangdawg13
08-01-2004 2:05 AM


The only one whom can seprate us from Christ's love is ourselves.
Dear Hangdawg13;
You are probably thinking of the following scripture.
(Romans 8:35-39) "Who will separate us from the love of the Christ? Will tribulation or distress or persecution or hunger or nakedness or danger or sword? . . . nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God's love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
The point in the Bible on this subject is that if we do our utmost to remain faithful, there is nothing that can separate up from the love of the Christ. This same thought is referred to here in this verse.
(1 Corinthians 10:13) "God is faithful, and he will not let YOU be tempted beyond what YOU can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for YOU to be able to endure it."
See, as long as we do our best, God will never allow us to be tempted or tested beyond what we could reasonably be expected to with stand. You have to remember that this doesn't exclude torture and death, Christians are expected to follow the example Christ set, this just means that God will not allow the testing to go on beyond what humans can take.
As Christians we need to remain faithful if we are to be saved and receive everlasting life.
(Matthew 10:22) "he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved."
Paul also stressed the need to endure and used himself as an example.
(1 Corinthians 9:27) "I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow." So Paul certainly didn't believe in one saved always saved.
The Bible is clear on what happens to those who do not follow Christ or stop following him.
(Ezekiel 18:4) "The soul that is sinningit itself will die"
(Romans 6:23) "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."
Failure to keep following Christ would certainly be a sin, and you can see what the above verses state on the out come of those who sin. Since we all sin to one degree or another, it is only through Christ's shed blood that we have hope, if we fail to follow Christ we lose that hope and would die in our sins.
Hope that clears it up for you, if you have any questions let me know and I will see if I can answer them for you.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-01-2004 2:05 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-03-2004 4:49 PM wmscott has replied

  
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