quote:
Holmes:
Your wallbuilders are just that... attempting to build walls between people of this society based on anachronisms.
TJ replies: It isn't my website, but please tell me how this site is attempting to build walls between people of this society based on anachronisms.
Thanks for the chance to learn a new word. anachronism - a person, thing or idea which exists out of its time in history, especially one which happened or existed later than the period being shown, discussed, etc.
This website is dedicated to the study of the works of the Founding Fathers, so that we can accurately interpret the Constitution. If there are any walls being built, they were built, not by the website, but by the Fathers themselves for our welfare and protection.
quote:
Holmes:
I assume these people believe that because slow loading muskets and cannons were the only weapons at the time the right to bear arms is only about muskets and cannons?
TJ replies: Careful about making assumptions. You know what they say about that.
I am curious though. Why in the world would you make such a ridiculous assumption? Are you insinuating that homosexuality didn't exist back then? Think again. It did exist and they clearly labelled it was an evil that was detrimental to society and therefore did not qualify for protection under the Bill of Rights.
quote:
Holmes:
That because the majority were for slavery that slavery should be reinstated today? After all that was Xian.
TJ replies:
Whoah, slow down, slow down a bit. I'm very interested in seeing documentation on this. Please back that bold claim up with referenced quotes from original sources. I will proceed to back up the opposite claim - that most were opposed to slavery. I'm curious to see what evidence you have for that claim.
quote: TJ:
Thanks to our Christian forefathers, we have a fair Constitution and a Bill of Rights. Now we're going to turn around and throw away the morality upon which it was all based and we think it won't matter? How smart is that?
quote:
Holmes:
It's fan-f'ing-tastic smart. After all it was their belief in individual freedom and secular government that gave us the Constitution and Bill of Rights and not their Xianity. If Xianity was the only requirement for those, the middle ages would have been vastly different.
Remember our founding fathers were breaking away from another Xian gov't. Their genius was losing the religious domination of gov't.
TJ replies: Holmes, all of a sudden you are making lots of bold assertions. Please support the above assertion with something other than your opinion and then we'll talk.
quote:
Holmes:
Perhaps they did not succeed in perfectly separating themselves from all ethnocentric beliefs of the time... such as sodomy. Niether had they separated themselves from concepts of slavery and anti-miscegnation.
And those last two points are of high interest to the discussion at hand. Jefferson may very well have disliked sodomy. But he also spoke and voted sometimes in support of slavery and separation of races. Yet at the time he was sleeping with a black woman, and at other times of his life wrote of his hopes that slavery would come to an end.
TJ replies:
miscegenation - inter-racial marriage, sex, etc. for those of you who don't know the term. I had to look this up too. My vocab is expanding!
Holmes, why do you say that their views on sodomy were ethnocentric? Who is to say that your views are not ethnocentric? Why are your views right as opposed to their views? Obviously they had a different view of morality than you did. Thank goodness, or we might not have the Constitution that we have.
Holmes, Here is a short section from Barton's book on the subject of slavery and the Founding Fathers. It is on line at this address if you want to read it. I already referred to it in a past post so you may have already read it, but I copied extensively from that site to show just how many Founding Fathers were against slavery.
Prior to the time of the Founding Fathers, there had been few serious efforts to dismantle the institution of slavery. John Jay identified the point at which the change in attitude toward slavery began:
Prior to the great Revolution, the great majority....of our people had been so long accustomed to the practice and convenience of having slaves that very few among them even doubted the propriety and rectitude of it. (John Jay, The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, editor(New York:G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1891), Vol. III, p. 342 to the Rev. Dean Woodward on April 10, 1773 as quoted in Barton on p. 289)
But the Revolution was the turning point in the national attitude and it was the Founding Fathers who contributed greatly to that change. In fact, many of the Founders vigorously complained against the fact that Great Britain had forcefully imposed upon the Colonies the evil of slavery.
For example, Thomas Jefferson heavily criticized that British policy in his original draft of the Declaration of Independence:
"He(King George) has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither....Determined to keep open a market where men should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce(that is, he has opposed efforts to prohibit the slave trade). "
Franklin too said the same thing in 1773:
"A disposition to abolish slavery prevails in North America, that many of Pennsylvanians have set their slaves at liberty, and that even the Virginia Assembly have petitioned the King for permission to make a law for preventing the importation of more into that colony. This request, however, will probably not be granted as their former laws of that kind have always been repealed." (Benjamin Franklin, The Works of Benjamin Franklin, Jared Sparks, ed. (Boston: Tappan, Whittemore, and Mason, 1839), Vol. VIII, p. 42, to the Rev. Dean Woodward on April 10, 1773.)
Jefferson himself introduced a bill in the Virginia Assembly designed to end slavery!(Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Ellery Bergh, editor(Washington D.C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1903), Vol. 1, p.4 as quoted in Barton p. 290.
Here is another Jefferson quote on slavery:
"The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. . . . And with what execration [curse] should the statesman be loaded, who permitting one half the citizens thus to trample on the rights of the other. . . . And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever." THOMAS JEFFERSON (Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia (Philadelphia: Matthew Carey, 1794), Query XVIII, pp. 236-237.)
And here are some more quotes from the Fathers on slavery from this website:
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?R...
[W]hy keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil. 10 CHARLES CARROLL, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION
As Congress is now to legislate for our extensive territory lately acquired, I pray to Heaven that they may build up the system of the government on the broad, strong, and sound principles of freedom. Curse not the inhabitants of those regions, and of the United States in general, with a permission to introduce bondage [slavery]. 11JOHN DICKINSON, SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
That men should pray and fight for their own freedom and yet keep others in slavery is certainly acting a very inconsistent, as well as unjust and perhaps impious, part. 12 JOHN JAY, PRESIDENT OF CONTINENTAL CONGRESS, ORIGINAL CHIEF JUSTICE U. S. SUPREME COURT
Christianity, by introducing into Europe the truest principles of humanity, universal benevolence, and brotherly love, had happily abolished civil slavery. Let us who profess the same religion practice its precepts . . . by agreeing to this duty.
14RICHARD HENRY LEE, PRESIDENT OF CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION
I hope we shall at last, and if it so please God I hope it may be during my life time, see this cursed thing [slavery] taken out. . . . For my part, whether in a public station or a private capacity, I shall always be prompt to contribute my assistance towards effecting so desirable an event. 15 WILLIAM LIVINGSTON, SIGNER OF THE
CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY
It ought to be considered that national crimes can only be and frequently are punished in this world by national punishments; and that the continuance of the slave-trade, and thus giving it a national sanction and encouragement, ought to be considered as justly exposing us to the displeasure and vengeance of Him who is equally Lord of all and who views with equal eye the poor African slave and his American master.
16LUTHER MARTIN, DELEGATE AT CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION
As much as I value a union of all the States, I would not admit the Southern States into the Union unless they agree to the discontinuance of this disgraceful trade [slavery]. 17
Honored will that State be in the annals of history which shall first abolish this violation of the rights of mankind. 18 JOSEPH REED, REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity. . . . It is rebellion against the authority of a common Father. It is a practical denial of the extent and efficacy of the death of a common Savior. It is an usurpation of the prerogative of the great Sovereign of the universe who has solemnly claimed an exclusive property in the souls of men.
19 BENJAMIN RUSH, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION
Justice and humanity require it [the end of slavery]—Christianity commands it. Let every benevolent . . . pray for the glorious period when the last slave who fights for freedom shall be restored to the possession of that inestimable right.
20 NOAH WEBSTER, RESPONSIBLE FOR ARTICLE I, SECTION 8, 8 OF THE CONSTITUTION
Slavery, or an absolute and unlimited power in the master over the life and fortune of the slave, is unauthorized by the common law. . . . The reasons which we sometimes see assigned for the origin and the continuance of slavery appear, when examined to the bottom, to be built upon a false foundation. In the enjoyment of their persons and of their property, the common law protects all. 21 JAMES WILSON, SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; U. S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE
It is certainly unlawful to make inroads upon others . . . and take away their liberty by no better means than superior power. 22 JOHN WITHERSPOON, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION
I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery]. 33 George Washington
For many of the Founders, their feelings against slavery went beyond words.
For example, in 1774, Benjamin Franklin and Benjamin Rush founded America's first anti-slavery society; John Jay was president of a similar society in New York. In fact, when signer of the Constitution William Livingston heard of the New York society, he, as Governor of New Jersey, wrote them, offering:
"I would most ardently wish to become a member of it [the society in New York] and . . .
I can safely promise them that neither my tongue, nor my pen, nor purse shall be wanting to promote the abolition of what to me appears so inconsistent with humanity and Christianity. . . . May the great and the equal Father of the human race, who has expressly declared His abhorrence of oppression, and that He is no respecter of persons, succeed a design so laudably calculated to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke." 23
Other prominent Founding Fathers who were members of societies for ending slavery included Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more. In fact, based in part on the efforts of these Founders, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1780; 24 Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; 25 Vermont in 1786; 26 New Hampshire in 1792; 27 New York in 1799; 28 and New Jersey did so in 1804. 29
Pretty impressive, wouldn't you say!
The truth is that it was the Founding Fathers who were responsible for planting and nurturing the first seeds for the recognition of black equality and for the eventual end of slavery. This was a fact made clear by Richard Allen.
Allen had been a slave in Pennsylvania but was freed after he converted his master to Christianity. Allen, a close friend of Benjamin Rush and several other Founding Fathers, went on to become the founder of the A.M.E. Church in America. In an early address "To the People of Color," he explained:
"Many of the white people have been instruments in the hands of God for our good, even such as have held us in captivity, [and] are now pleading our cause with earnestness and zeal." 34
According to Jefferson, Madison, (both your heroes I assume) and John Rutledge, it was the Founders from North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia who most strongly favored slavery. 7
Not a very impressive lot I would think. Looks like they were far outnumbered.
While most states were moving toward freedom for slaves, the deep South (Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina) was largely pro-slavery. Yet, even so, the Southern courts before around 1840 generally took the position that slavery violated the natural rights of blacks. For example, the Mississippi Supreme Court ruled in 1818:
Slavery is condemned by reason and the laws of nature. It exists and can only exist, through municipal regulations, and in matters of doubt,...courts must lean in favorem vitae et libertatis [in favor of life and liberty].( Harry v. Decker & Hopkins (1818), in West, p. 4.)
The issue of slavery was considered at the Constitutional Convention. Though most delegates were opposed to slavery, they compromised on the issue when the representatives from Georgia and South Carolina threatened to walk out. The delegates realized slavery would continue in these states with or without the union. They saw a strong union of all the colonies was the best means of securing their liberty (which was by no means guaranteed to survive). They did not agree to abolish slavery as some wanted to do,
but they did take the forward step of giving the Congress the power to end the slave trade after 20 years. (Congress banned the exportation of slaves from any state in 1794, and in 1808 banned the importation of slaves. The individual states had passed similar legislation prior to 1808 as well.
However, several Southern states continued to actively import and export slaves after their state ban went into effect.) No nation in Europe or elsewhere had agreed to such political action.
Even so, many warned of the dangers of allowing this evil to continue. George Mason of Virginia told the delegates:
Every master of slaves is born a petty tyrant. They bring the judgement of heaven upon a country. As nations cannot be rewarded or punished in the next world, they must be in this. By an inevitable chain of causes and effects, Providence punishes national sins by national calamities. (Mark Beliles and Stephen McDowell, America's Providential History (Charlottesville, Va.: Providence Foundation, 1991), p. 227.)
While the Constitution did provide some protection for slavery, this document is not pro-slavery. It embraced the situation of all 13 states at that time, the Founders leaving most of the power to deal with this social evil in the hands of each state. Most saw that the principles of liberty contained in the Declaration could not support slavery and would eventually overthrow it.. As delegate to the Constitutional Convention, Luther Martin put it:
"Slavery is inconsistent with the genius of republicanism, and has a tendency to destroy those principles on which it is supported, as it lessens the sense of the equal rights of mankind, and habituates us to tyranny and oppression."( Luther Martin, Genuine Information (1788), in Herbert J. Storing, ed., The Complete Anti-Federalist (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1981), vol. 2, p. 62. In West, p. 6.)
So Holmes, show me your quotes and the evidence with which you are basing your bold assertion on.
quote:
Holmes:
Perhaps there were others that said one thing while hoping for a future freedom, with regard to their sexuality.
Or perhaps there were people within the nation then, who were just as important, or more important than the founding fathers (if their own words are to be believed of the importance of the people), that wanted their sexual freedom. And without question there are now people who want their freedom. And without question there are now people who want their freedom.
TJ replies: Perhaps so, perhaps not. What does it matter? What we do know is that most of the Founders opposed slavery and took steps to abolish it based on the principles of the Word of God.
I'm sure there had to have been some homosexuals back then who wanted their sexual freedom. By the way, the idea of the people being important is rooted in the idea of majority rules and the homosexuals were not in the majority. In fact still aren't. Since when do the desires of a minority of people guarantee them the freedom to act on those desires? I never read that in the Constitution. There are lots of people who want to drive 70, 80, even 90 mph on the highway and in fact, they might even be in the majority, but they are not permitted to do so for very good reasons. So, irrelevant, it would seem.
Again Holmes, I think I asked this in another post, but why are you pushing so much for people to have sexual freedom? What are the benefits that society receives from such behavior? I can tell you the problems with it, but I'm very interested in knowing why you think this is such a good thing for society. Or is it just a selfish desire that you have - rather that we all have because we tend to be self-centered and want to please ourselves before we think about how our actions will affect others? Just curious.
quote:
Holmes:
Are the personal beliefs of a specific group of men over 200 years ago, supposed to bind them in chains today? Shall we go about in knickers and tripod hats as well, just because they fancied them the highest of fashion of that day?
TJ replies: No, but the Constitution is binding, isn't it? I guess you would then say that we can change the Constitution however we want, right? I mean, why allow people freedom to worship as they want? Let's have a national policy of no religion in the public arean. Who cares what the majority of the Fathers thought? Who cares that we have been created equal? In fact, many people don't even believe in that today, so there is no fundamental basis for equality other than we know in our hearts that it is right because God has created us with that knowledge. But if we can ignore the ideas of the Fathers, we can certainly ignore the idea of personal freedom too or of religious freedom, right?
quote:
Holmes:
Hmmmmm, maybe Jefferson has something to say about that...
"The Gothic idea that we were to look backwards instead of forwards for the improvement of the human mind, and to recur to the annals of our ancestors for what is most perfect in government, in religion and in learning, is worthy of those bigots in religion and government by whom it has been recommended, and whose purposes it would answer. But it is not an idea which this country will endure." --Thomas Jefferson to Joseph Priestley, 1800.
Heheheh... thanks Tom.
TJ replies;
Ooh, you got a good juicy quote there, didn't you. I'd like to read the context in which this was written though. Priestly himself was a clergyman which is interesting. I wonder what the point/subject of the letter was. Sounds like an interesting letter.
But just don't forget that Tom also said things like this:
"The practice of morality being necessary for the well-being of society, He[God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral precepts of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses."
(The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Ellery Bergh, editor(Washington, D.C.:The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XII, p. 315, to James Fishback, September 27, 1809.(as quoted in David Barton's Original Intent, pg. 321)
I said this to Crash and I'll say it to you. If you really want to know what Thomas Jefferson thought about Christianity, religion, government, and separation of church and State, then look at these actions and quotes from him all referenced at this site:
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?R...
+ Jefferson urged local governments to make land available specifically for Christian purposes; [5]
+ In an 1803 federal Indian treaty, Jefferson willingly agreed to provide $300 to "assist the said Kaskaskia tribe in the erection of a church"and to provide "annually for seven years $100 towards the support of a Catholic priest." He also signed three separate acts setting aside government lands for the sole use of religious groups and setting aside government lands so that Moravian missionaries might be assisted in "promoting Christianity."[6]
+ When Washington D. C. became the national capital in 1800, Congress voted that the Capitol building would also serve as a church building. [7] President Jefferson chose to attend church each Sunday at the Capitol [8] and even provided the service with paid government musicians to assist in its worship. [9] Jefferson also began similar Christian services in his own Executive Branch, both at the Treasury Building and at the War Office. [10]
+ Jefferson praised the use of a local courthouse as a meeting place for Christian services; [11]
+ Jefferson assured a Christian religious school that it would receive "the patronage of the government" [12]
+ Jefferson proposed that the Great Seal of the United States depict a story from the Bible and include the word "God"in its motto; [13]
+ While President, Jefferson closed his presidential documents with the phrase, "in the year of our Lord Christ; by the President; Thomas Jefferson."[14]
Furthermore, Jefferson would especially disagree with those who believe that public prayers should be non-sectarian and omit specific references to Jesus. Jefferson believed that every individual should pray according to his own beliefs. As Jefferson explained:
"[The] liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will [is] a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support. [15] (emphasis added)
Critics, therefore, would be particularly troubled by President Jefferson's words that:
No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example. [16]
Thanks Tom!
Regards,
TJ
This should not be taken as evidence that I'm dismissing your posts or your arguments, but rather, that I clearly don't care about this issue as deeply as you seem to. I hope you're ok with that. The reason I don't so much care is because it's obvious to me that, like any civil rights issue, gay marriage is an inevitable reality, no matter the outcome of this amendment situation.
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